CTLAC aka The "witch hunt"committee

This sounds just as bad as that church-state seperation group.... :)  ping! 

Steven P Munsey A+, MCP, IASO Orange Park | Green Cove Springs munsey13@comcast.net

Mr. Hunt,

Since you are new to the area, one wonders how you were made aware of the CTLAC and able to come to such a biased conclusion so quickly.  But be that as it may; Clay County is a charter county.  Our Charter is a governing document, not unlike though less broad in scope, to Florida's State and the United States Constitutions.  When you take the time to read the charter, you will see that this document can be changed via three methods.  The CTLAC is acting under paragraph 4.2.A.(1); "The electors of Clay County shall have the right to initiate proposed amendments to this Home Rule Charter upon petition of the qualified electors in the county."

The CTLAC, of which I am a member, does not "force new laws on the people" by using "in your face tactics".  Acquiring signed petitions is part of the process and county citizens are asked to support this effort.  There is nothing wrong with the voting system.  On the contrary, garnering petitions IS PART OF the voting system.  All valid proposed amendments to the charter are placed before the electorate during a general election for approval.  Surely you do not believe that citizens do not have a right to exercise this provision in the charter?  I'm not sure from where you migrated, but the citizens of Clay County are the government of Clay County.

I hope this was helpful.

Mr. Hunt,

It appears by your post you are new to the area and come from somewhere outside of the USA. We have a democracy (a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation) where the people are the government. Don't worry some times our elected officials seem to forget that as well. The CTLAC has done some great work for the county and has managed to do it with limited financial resources which shows how effect groups such as theirs can be. They proposed petitions, gathered signatures, and the people overwhelming voted for single member districts and term limits. No petitions signed become law unless the people vote on them. So they have 2 hurdles to overcome. The amazing things was all the Commissioners were in opposition to single member districts with the exception of Commissioner Bush who waffled a bit and these individuals usually bring in the money friends to help them so they get favors later when they want something. I admire their accomplishments, their hard work, and what they have done for the county. At the same time managed to do so on limited funds. I believe the ideas they are proposing now to not only limit the salaries of the commissioners but to make it where we the people vote for an increase in their salary is a great idea. Not an automatic increase for warming a seat. We must assume the powers that be wanted 7 commissioners because who could call themselves a republician and come up with the idea to fix our problems in Clay County is more government. Less government was not our problems but who was running our government so why would more fix it. Someone recently wrote in a blog term limits for federal legislators because some have been there so long they have become senile. The votes to have 7 commissioners was not a landslide as they stated but a very narrow margin. However in compairson the amount of money used to promote 7 commissioners was huge. This prompted the CTLAC to proposed all amendments be passed by a large margin of the voters. They made that concept apply to the Commissioners, Charter Review, and themselves as well. Inclusion not exclusion which is as democrated as you could get in our society today. Yet the powers that run the county never pick any members of the CTLAC to be on anything such as the CRC, planning commission, etc. This shows the commissioners exclusion and not inclusion. My hat is off to you guys for all the hard work you do and the value you bring to the community. In a Charter county the manager should run the county and I believe he is paid well for his services. The Commissioners are only policy makers thus a part time job. So why would they need a salary with benefits that puts them very close to the managers salary times 7 for all the soon to be commissioners. Personally if the citizens are serious about change in the county they should find the CTLAC and request a petitions to sign. CTLAC keep up the good work you are a essential part of the community. I think Mr. Smith makes the BCC meetings a pleasure to watch.

My opinion of the Citizens for Term Limits & Accountability, like my opinion of most things, is a mixed bag. All of Clay County should be grateful for the work the political action group did in forcing the true "good ol' boys network" out of the closet and into the light of public scrutiny. They certainly deserve a great deal of credit for flushing out the scoundrels that were parading around GCS as public servants. Eventually, anything the size of Clay County's government that is being mismanaged the way our County was being mishandled will implode. Such fraud and deceit cannot escape exposure forever. The CTLA, specifically Durwood Smith, played a major role in forcing the issue to the forefront. Their citizen's initiatives to reign in government were timely and took advantage of a rightfully angry citizenry. I am grateful.

But, since then, the group seems like an army looking for a war to fight. On their website, the were literally asking for people to send them ideas of things to pursue. I believe if an idea or issue needs a group to champion it, it will make itself known. The "issue" pot does not the CTLA to stir it. I don't agree with their latest proposal to reduce commissioner salaries, and frankly wonder why the CTLA did not participate with the Charter Review Commission on this issue, instead of seeming antagonistic towards the CRC. Because some of the CRC proposals passed with a majority just over 50% (but that is still a majority), the CTLA now wants charter amendments to pass with a minimum 60% majority. Really, not a bad idea, but it seems as if it is specifically aimed at the CRC.

I guess to sum up how I feel about the CTLA, it is that I wonder what the motives of the leaders of the CTLA are. They have the appearance of being retributive, and liking the public attention. The 60% bar for charter amendments was not necessary until an idea they didn't like passed by less than 60%. Mr. Smith's "reserved" seat at BCC meetings, with his bright red blazer on, is no accident. I have the utmost respect for Mr. Smith, and any other citizen who takes the time to participate in civic affairs, but I personally don't understand the anger that seems to motivate them. They have a hyper-critical tone in all that they do. We have an outstanding new county manager, 4 of 5 new county commissioners, and a county staff that seems re-energized by the shake-up in GCS. If the CTLA is to be believed, nothing, and I mean nothing, good comes out of GCS. Should the county government be held to public scrutiny - absolutely. Should the officials constantly be belittled, verbally accosted, continue to be accused of malfeasance for all they do - I don't believe they should.

It seems to me the CTLA is trying to prove it is still relevant. And to me, they are trying too hard. I think a group like the CTLA can be a productive force, but for some reason, some of the members of the CTLA (the more outspoken ones at least) seem to have an angry edge that seems over the top. Everything in Clay County does not require a subpoena or grand jury investigation. Every county official is not a criminal. Clay County has turned an important corner in its evolution. The CTLA certainly had their hand on the steering wheel helping it along. But to me, they seem to want to hang onto the wheel and not let the past be the past.

Some thoughts.

Thank you, the information is very helpful.  Especially, the insight of Baxley.  I think Baxley has nailed it. 

FYI:   My lovely lady just returned home from the store and the CTLA did it again with the "in your face stuff"  She said no thank you and the guy commenced to beg.

Mr Hunt

For someone who is new to the area, you sure came to some quick conclusions regarding one of the best citizens groups ever to operate in Clay County.

I have been here long enough to remember what it was like before CTLAS got going. We had long serving elected officials who were very cozy with special interests and the county suffered.Some might say our overdevelopment,transportation and school issues were caused by this type of government.

 Ctlas bought us (we all did vote for these measures and these laws were not forced upon us) term limits,single member districts,pressured attorney general for grand jury investigations into corruption etc etc They helped put the" for the people" back into clay county government.Yet you a new person in Clay County sees fit to trash the organization.I won't say what I'm thinking but will say that we live in a free society and everyone is entitled to their opinion.I just do not agree with yours.

Ctlas is currently working a number of issues,all of which seem to have merit.

There are others. In my opinion, we should not have more elected officials.Why we have two more commissioners makes no sense, yet with a smoothe and well financed effort, you can get the voters to approve such lunacy.

This effort was brought to you by the same group of commissioners who approved garbage contracts before asking the electorate.One commissioner actually had the garbage hauler as a client up to the vote.Yet you want to know why watchdog organizations like CTLAS exist.

I do hope you have read the responses and have become better informed.

Welcome to Clay County.

byrne

Baxley, I agree with your description of CTLA's history and effectiveness. For the period of time they motivated County government to reform, we are very appreciative. They have served Clay County well. But CTLA's usefullness is much like a rising river that has reached it's highest mark. Once it has peaked, it can reach no higher.

We have turned the corner in County governing - at least on the Commission side.

Others can and want to take it from here. It's a new era. And yes, one with two new at-large commissioners.

As I review the two new referendums that CTLA is proposing, I am struck by the symbolic parallel between what they want to accomplish and what the Florida Legislature is struggling with today: Regressive reform vs. progressive reform. Is it reform for reform's sake or reform to achieve a desired outcome?

If viewed in that light, CTLA's proposals don't pass citizen muster.

The first proposal to reduce commission salaries lands in the "reform-for-reform-sake" pile. We've been there and solved that.

The second proposal doesn't achieve a desired outcome unless it is to punish the people it deemed incompetent to work with at the Charter Review level. Should citizens get behind them because they have an ax to grind?

No. It's wasted time and duplicate effort.

Let's take the corner we turned when we landed 4 out of 5 fresh new faces on Commission this year and allow them an opportunity to solve some of our problems. Rome wasn't built in a day and - dare I say - neither will Clay County.

The key factor in the County's future success is convincing the regional press not to allow CTLA to spout its contradicting policies. The press lends credibility where there is no established expertise, citing no recognized sources or reputable research.

We must hold them both accountable.

I would like to enlighten the citizens who read the blogs so they have correct information so those who need accountablity can be held accountable. The Chamber of Commerce has a 2007 Business Advocacy Agenda which looks just like their 2006 agenda. On that agenda it states supports giving voters the chance to close the loopholes by requiring a two-thirds vote to pass admendments. What is different from what they advocate than what the CTLAC is working very hard to get passed in Clay County. They also support to ensure citizens maintain control of the citizens initiatives by keeping speial interest from placing pet projects into the Florida Constitution. If the Chamber advocates these then they should call and get their petitions to sign from the CTLAC.

The CRC reduced the salaries of the Commissioners but stopped short of letting the citizens decide if they get a raise. That should have been the most important part of an amendment is to let the voters decide if you get a raise. I have yet to figure out why Clay County needs 7 commissioners. All the other counties with a population of under 200,000 have 5 commissioners and seem to not have the problems with corruptions and what the county has been through in the past couple of years. Is the CRC telling the citizens sorry we don't have the level of quality citizens to run for the Commissioners positions so we need to give you the citizens 7 in hopes of getting the same thing all other counties have with 5 commissioners. Well in the paper it was reported Clay County caught illegally dumping again. What did 4 of the 5 new Commissioners do to stop or prevent that incident.

Seems to me the people who need to be held accountable are not and those who need our support CTLAC get bashed by people who don't know we are the government. CTLAC you are needed now more than ever so keep up the good work.

I think I am starting to get the big picture now, all of this is helpfull.  I find the CTLAC to be a very interesting group of people, small in numbers yet a very focused and functiional.  They will not get my money, but I see more clearly now.

Mr. Hunt, I think it would be great information to know that the CTLAC worked very hard to get single member districts proposed and voted in by a large majority of the citizens. Yet before that could be implemented the CRC proposed the 2 at large commissioners. These individuals say they are Republicans but I have found and firmly believe more government is not a attribute that I can support. We need citizens to participate in the government and become vigilant if our problems are going to be solved in our county. I will say kudos to the individual that reported the current case of illegal dumping. This has now be stopped before it cost the citizens a large sum of money as before. Maybe you should know the whole history of the CTLAC and what citizens and citizens group can do for the county. I commend them for their hard work and success on limited funds. They always say follow the money and if these people are struggling with finances but strong on will and determination that is the true meaning of a grassroots effort. I think if citizens want a change we need to sign those petitions and tell our friends let's all work together to make a better Clay County for the people and by the people.

Unfortunately, it's the type of misinformation being put forth by Angela that causes folks to distrust the CTLAC.  There is no new illegal dumping scandal.  In fact, the County Auditor's Report on the issue, which was discussed at length at the BCC meeting yesterday, makes it clear that the County acted professionally, efficiently and correctly with regard to the Arora Boulevard situation.  Just read the report.  If you email the County Auditor at mike.price@co.clay.fl.us, he will email it to you. 

As for the CRC recommendations which Angela and the CTLAC so violently opposed, I recommend that Mr. Hunt and others read the CRC's report on the county website at www.claycounty.com.  Click on "Public Interests" and then "Charter Review Commission."  The report speaks for itself.  The recommendations made sense, and that's why the majority of the voters agreed to adopt them.   

Here is a copy of the letter submitted to DEP. Thank God for a citizen that called to report this or otherwise they would have continued. If this was legal why does the letter say this has been stopped. The county did not stop doing this until they were reported issued a letter of non-compliance an investigation by the Sheriff's Office and took the following to stop the illegal action as directed by DEP to be in compliance.

April 5, 2007

Mr. Gregory J. Strong, District Director
Florida Department of Environmental Protection, Northeast District Office
7825 Baymeadows Way, Suite 200B
Jacksonville, Florida 32256-7590

Reference: Non-Compliance Letter No. NCL07-0777SW10NED, dated March 19, 2007

Dear Mr. Strong:

The Clay County Public Works Department will correct the issues identified in your March 19, 2007 correspondence to manage ditch cleaning and Vac-truck Catch Basin Sediments in the following steps:

Closure of Ditch Cleaning sites: We have terminated all Public Works operations at the Arora right-of-way site. We have cleaned it, seeded the area and will fence it to protect against any future problems. This was a nuisance location with no on-site control. For safety purposes we will be closing the County Road 215 location, we have used this “temporary site” for a year and believe that operating off a high speed right-of-way is not worth the risk of continued operation.

We have stopped all Vac-truck operations in Clay County until we can construct a DEP approved drying bed facility. We are searching other agencies for a model facility to duplicate. Your involvement and help would be appreciated.

Ditch Cleanings: We will continue operations on approved sites for Keystone and Green Cove Areas. Once we receive final written approval to process ditch cleaning in pit locations we will move our current operations within our maintenance yard compounds. This can be accomplished immediately at Sleep Hollow, Keystone’s Twin Lakes and Green Cove’s Knowles Pit. The Middleburg area will have to wait for completion of the Masters Pit clean-up.

Training: More training, more often; we are currently arranging training for employees who missed the original training conducted by Jones-Edmunds on April 12, 2005. Additionally, will plan for refresher training for employees trained almost 2 years ago and develop a sustainment training plan for the future.

Sincerely,

Dave Austin
Clay County Public Works Director

cc: Mr. Fritz Behring, Clay County Manager, County
Mr. Alan Altman, Clay County Deputy of Environmental Services

I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF MISINFORMATION BUT I THINK THE ABOVE SPEAKS VOLUMES FOR THE TRUTH.

Angela fails to address the County Auditor's report, which describes the County's handling of this situation as professional and efficient and reasonable.  Again, read the Auditor's report for an accurate, detailed review of this entire event.  I considered it much more illuminating than taking one letter out of context.  After reading the report, I don't think anyone would consider the DEP's actions in this case to be worthy of praise.   

In the report the Auditor concluded that officials should have used better judgment when they used a county-owned lot in Orange Park for the operations. He also stated "If Public Works was not confused by this guidance, I can assure you that your auditor was." Of course we know it is his job to put some lipstick on the situation. They just put 9 million dollars worth of lipstick on the other dumping situation. However the letter written by the public works director above states this has stopped and will not continue and requested new guidelines from the DEP.Commissioner Rutledge said when those guidelines are established then Clay County will meet them. It would be worthwhile to know the cost to the taxpayers for the material to be taken to the site and once dried dug through by workers who separated out the solids to be taken to the landfill. The DEP was just doing their job when they investigated and issued the lettter of non compliance. The praise goes to the citizen who took it upon themself to report this illegal activity so it could be stopped. We must all become as vigilant as this citizen did and ask questions. It could have saved us the taxpayers 9 million dollars which could have been better used on the taxpayers and the needs of the county in the prior dumping issues.

To all the citizens who attempted to watch the BCC meeting on the 24th on tv and found the meeting blacked out. It seems we have a ESO (equipment smarter than operator) problems with our new equipment paid for by the taxpayers which has resulted in an a reversal of that idea too. However, I am sure 2006nationalchampsx2 will find the County's handling of this situation as professional and efficient as well.

Wow, now the County Auditor's job is "to put lipstick on the situation."  Poor guy.  He was a hero last year to Angela and the CTLAC when he gave an independent, blunt assessment of the Knowles Pit scandal.  Now, apparently, he's lost his independence and is nothing more than a public relations tool for the County.  I respect Angela's passion but I view the situation differently.  Again, I urge the public to read the Audit Report and come to its own conclusions.   

PERSONALLY I  THOUGHT I  OUR HERO WAS GEROGE BUSH, MIKE PRICE IS JUST THE PUPPETT TO COVER THE TRUTH.  WHY DONT YOU FIND OUT THAT DURNING HIS SO CALLED AUDIT OF PUBLIC WORKS THAT THE DIRECTOR WAS CHUCK KOHLER NOT ARTHUR IVEY NOW WHY IS IT THAT MR IVEY IS IN THE WRONG DURING HIS TIME AS DIR. BUT NOT MR KOHLER WHO WAS IN CHARGE WHEN THE 1st AUDIT WAS DONE CONCERING THE PITS.  THEN WHY IS MR IVEY BLAMED,HE WAS ONLY THE ASST.TRANSPORTATION DIR.AT THAT TIME, COULD IT BE BECAUSE MR PRICE AND MR KOHLER WERE GOLFING BUDDIES,THAT THEY WENT TO LUNCH ALL THE TIME,NO WAY!!!!!! WAIT HOW MANY YEARS DID MR KOHLER STAND IN THE POSITION OF PUBLIC WORKS DIRECTOR WAS IT 4YRS. IM GLAD TO SEE SOMEONE ELSE IS STARTING TO NOTICE THE COVER UP ALONG WITH THE REST OF US,YOU MUST BELEIVE WHAT YOU WANT BUT THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT,EACH DIRECTOR IN THE PAST ALL THE WAY BACK TO MR KNOWLES USED THE PITS.WHEN I WENT TO THE COUNTY IN 66 THEY WERE USING THE PITS THEN,AND WHEN I LEFT THEY WERE STILL USING THEM AND MR IVEY WAS ONLY AN ASST.RD SUPT WHEN I LEFT.I WILL TELL YOU THIS MR WILISON KNEW ABOUT THE PITS AS WELL AS COMM BUSH AND COMM LANCASTER AND JAMES JETT AND JIMMY WEEKS.CHECK THE RECORD!!YOU WILL SEE THEY HAVE PAPER WORK ALL THE WAY BACK SHOWING THE USE OF THE PITS AND DRIVERS HAULING IN THERE I KNOW I TURNED IN A DAILY WORK SHEETS WHAT WE DONE FOR THE DAY ,MR BUSH SAYS I DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THE PITS WELL HE SURE VOTED IN 1995 TO SEND CONTAIMATED SOIL TO SLEEPY HOLLY AND TO PAY THE BILL FOR HAVING IT HAULED .AGAIN CHECK YOU BCC MINUTES IF YOU WANT THE TRUTH.QUESS WHO AUTHORISE THE DISPOSIAL YOU GOT IT BOB WILISON, BUT THEY DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THE PITS .HOG WASH !!!!!!!!!!!! 

I caught wind of this whole thing a few weeks ago when it was published in a local paper (can't remember which one).   An innocuos paragraph or two sometime in March about DEP citing Clay County for not handling ditch & culvert clean-out mud properly.  I thought, Oh no, here we go again.  I kept an eye on the paper, and an ear to the news, but nothing.  I figured if this were serious, surely it would jump to the front page of some paper within days. Nothing.

I ran into Comm. Conkey in early April and asked what he knew about it and he seemed well aware of the issue, and told me what he knew.  The facts that he related to me in early April are exactly what is being reported as "news" this past week.  The Auditor, in my opinion, has done an exemplary job gathering the facts and bringing them quickly to the BCC, and citizens. (I agree with 2006nationalchampsx2:  one day a hero, next day a goat - my, my we ARE a fickle lot).

My complaint is:  if people in government - commissioners, staff, department heads, etc. knew about the DEP citations, and obviously they did, why wait these number of weeks before taking a public position.  I'll give them that they needed to collect all the information (the Auditor's report), but given the history of anything with the word "dumping" in it, I think someone, Chairman of the BCC or the County Manager, should have quickly, and LOUDLY gotten in front of this issue, instead of seemingly being blindsided - again - by something going on in the public works department.

I fully recognize and comprehend the positions of the staff - this is more of a technicality than horrible environmental abuse.  Mud is cleaned out of a ditch, placed somewhere to dry (no real guidelines from an environmental agency as to how or where), cleaned of debris, and recycled back to mother earth.  I'm OK with that.  Yes, a little more thought needs to be given as to where it is placed to dry.  But nothing illegal or immoral is going on.  But still . . .

Someone should have declared for all the world (at least the Clay County part of it) that DEP had cited the county.  And that someone should not have been a local newspaper.

While the environmental watchdogs are eyeballing Clay County so critically, I'd like someone to go by the car wash at Blanding & CR-218 and watch as the hundreds (thousands?) of gallons of soapy water run off into the ditches along CR-218.  If this is OK, then drying your ditch mud can't be all that bad.

More misinformation but I will clear these points up for you. I never did think that Mr. Price was a hero and never stated that before, during , or after his first investigation. I felt that having an independent investigation would have better served the county and the taxpayers. However, an independent investigation would have concluded that more individuals would be involved than just Ivey and Fitzgerald. This was a price the county officials were not willing to pay so they placed the entire 9 million dollar monkey on the backs of the citizens. At the present 2 of the Commissioners have left and are entitled to some nice retirements on the taxpayers back as well. I don't think any citizens could resonably determine that a minimum of 10 years worth of dumping in those landfills and Ivey caused it all. He was a scapegoat and so was Fitzgerald. Next, I am not with the CTLAC but do support the amendments that I have seen them work for. I support single member districts, I support term limits, and I support the salary increases approved by the voters, I support a marjority of the voters approval to place any amendments to the Charter. I support the Charter form of government because I believe for the people and by the people because we are the government. I have never seen one example of more government being a good idea regardless of who proposed that idea. Therefore, I could not support 7 Commissioners because the number of commissioner were not our problems. I think it would be a great idea to bring the Constitutional Officers under the Charter and we could audit their budgets. The Sheriff's budget has increased 63% since 1999 and I think we need independent auditors that have the taxpayers best interest at heart when it comes to the Constitutional Officers. But just like the ethics the voters voted for now has 2 of the constitutional officers threatening to have the commissioner charged with malfeasance for merely doing his duty. I think Mr. Price's expertise would be better valued in number crunching than doing an illegal dumping investigation. However In the report the Auditor concluded that officials should have used better judgment when they used a county-owned lot in Orange Park for the operations. No matter if its lipstick or spin it is all the same in the end. Baxley, you are right someone with some leadership skills should have come out front with this even if it was to tell us they received a non compliance letter it was being investigated and as soon as they have the results of that investigation it would be made public. They should have explained to the citizens it is their policy not to discuss ongoing investigation and as soon as the investigtions were concluded the citizens would be the first to know and the Officials made available to answer any questions from the press or public. However another case of the officials should have used better judgment when dealing with both aspect of the problem. As far as the carwash the soap is approved as a biodegradable products thus not illegal. We are not certain what was swept up off the streets as you can see the huge trash issues we have in the county. Let me stop now before I get started on another journey.......

The 7-member commission incorporates and upholds voter preference for 5-single districts. In the last election, 55% of voters recognized that the ultimate makeup of the commission wasn't diluted by adding two at-large members. In 2008, you'll have the ability to exercise more control about who's on commission than you did if you voted in one of the single-member districts last year.

My district was affected by a single-district vote. Single districts are OK but what if your commissioner doesn't respond to to something that is important to you. You have no political recourse except to rally a grassroots campaign to replace your commissioner and an election may be several years away. With at-large membership, you can talk to someone who has an overall responsibility for the entire county.

The combination of single and at-large representation is a balanced approach to government. It's not about adding more government. It's about increasing accountability to the people government serves.

What is disturbing is how opinionated CTLA has been against balanced government. It appears as if they want an extreme form of government. And my impression of them is that if it's not their idea, it's not a good idea.

When I look at the dynamics of committees or commissions, one of the most important aspects is the chemistry that comes from individuals sharing different perspectives and the negotiation that results from the sharing of these views.

The charter amendments was a negotiation between 15 Clay Countians and 15 diverse perspectives. The Times-Union editorial page commended the CRC for its honesty and integrity in the process. They took a full year to review the charter and accepted new information up to the last minute the commission was convened.

CTLA offered some ideas during the process (none of which are the two they are trying to move to referendum now) but refused to provide quantified research to support their positions. So while I appreciate their energy, they oftentimes cannot back up the positions they support.

The idea of bringing the Constitutional Officers under the charter is a topic that deserves full exploration and discussion by Clay Countians. On the county's website, there is a link to the Charter Review Recommendations and one of the Non-Charter recommendations is for the next Charter Review Commission to fully address this issue to determine whether it has value.

This would be a great place to start that conversation, Angela. Why do you think bringing the Constitutional Officers under the charter is important?

The CRC who was at that time tasked with the very important job of helping the County combat what was an onslot of local, state, and Federal Investigations (Fed investigation still ongoing) concerning corruption, mismanagement, incompetence, negligence, and the list goes on. This was an opportunity for them to bring all the citizens together give them some proposals that would have given the citizens confidence in the government and assurance this would not happen again. The idea they proposed- we need 7 commissioners. I am still at a loss as to how that will prevent what has happened from happening in the future. I think a lot of citizens share the same feelings or else the proposal would have passed with a overwhelming majority (over 60%) of the voters instead of just about even. What that says to me is the CRC missed the opportuinty to bring all citizens together give them trust and confidence back in their government instead this has created a lot of lingering negative feelings in the community.The single member districts are still in place with the exception they now have 2 at large Commissioners that causes even more negative feelings because of the mistrust and lack of confidence in our elected officials. We have a few people such as you who try to keep telling us we have turned a corner, we are moving forward, and as Commissioner Thrasher would say, "I see the glass as half full now". Well the majority still have very negative feelings concerning all the elected officials and I don't think they see the glass as half full. If Commissioner Bradley runs for one of the at large positions or District 1 it will seal the deal for me as a jest. The next proposal an ethics policy I will let the Constitutional Officers speak for themselves while they make threats to have the commissioner charged with malfeasance for doing his job. Next non interfernce clause that is the meaning of reform for reform's sake. That is the way a Charter form of government is run it was illegal what the Commissioners were doing but no accountablity because it wasn't spelled out.

Your Questions-Why do you think bringing the Constitutional Officers under the charter is important?

The county has no legal level of budget controls over their budgets. They have outside auditors they pick. That needs to change in a Charter form of government we still select Auditors for the Constitutionals like we are a non charter form of govenrment. Make these auditors answer to the Commissioners and the taxpayers and not appease the Constitutional Officers. The Commissioners approve those budgets and we the taxpayers fund that money. The Sheriff's budget has increased by 63% since 1999  soon it will consume the entire budget. In Jacksonville because of the request for additional funds they are in the process of a complete audit of the Sheriff's budget which is a great idea in my book.

Angela, I think the key component in ANY governmental structure to combat entitlement, corruption, intereference - or any other of a number of ills - is awareness. Regardless of whether it's 5 at-large, 5 single, or a combination of the two, as long as those elected officials are aware that we're aware, that's half the battle. The problem is, too few do until a crisis hits.

If more people participated in the process, more people would have a hands-on experience of their local government. I believe the experience factor would go a long way in creating trust between citizens, elected officials and agencies. It's not enough to identify or complain about what's wrong. I feel - individually - we have to take responsibility and be part of fixing what we see wrong. For me, I want my participation to be positive and cooperative. I think we bring others along by our attitudes of open-mindedness and a willingness to listen.

In the end, this is a government for and by the people. I don't see a lot of people at BCC meetings. If it's true that people put their energy where their priorities are then evidently, unless there's an emergency, county government - where the rubber meets the road - is not a priority.

I think that's what has to change. It's not the 5 at-large format, the 5 single-district format or a combination of the two. It's the level of apathy in Joe Citizen.

Your points about the Constitutional budgets are on target and well taken. Perhaps the media can be encouraged to pick up this story line and explore it sometime - although My Clay Sun or Clay Today won't write a story over 300-450 words. It deserves some of the paper's white space and editorials.

We have a huge disadvantage in Clay County the vast majority of us work in Jacksonville commute, sit in horrible traffic for hours a day, and still have families and homes to care for. The Commissioners go to work in Green Cove we the citizens drive the opposite way. They have the power to slip a 2003 Public Works Audit right past the citizens. Along with lots of items not on the agenda. Case in point the BCC meeting was suppose to be aired on the 24th was blacked out. They said it was suppose to be aired today at 5:00. Guess what, not on there. When the Commissioners decided to bring housing developments instead of industry to Clay County the responsiblity should be on them to over educated the public concerning issues that affect the taxpayers so they can arrange to be at the meetings. I will agree with your statement {I think that's what has to change. It's not the 5 at-large format, the 5 single-district format or a combination of the two. It's the level of apathy in Joe Citizen}. My point exactly why do we need 7 Commissioners? More Government, more people to watch, while the citizens sit in traffic and they make the policies. Either someone here was very smart or completely incompetent when they designed the county this way. Either way we the citizens are the ones with the disadvantage.

I live south of the SR-21 and SR-16 interchange. We don't get live broadcasts - at all. They air the day before the next BCC meeting (two weeks later). I don't use that as an excuse not to stay informed. Granted, I don't commute to Gainesville or Jacksonville, but as a resident in the southwest part of the county, I do what I can to stay informed.

It goes back to priority.

Stay involved Angela. I encourage you to talk to editors of local papers to see it they'll report on the Constitutional Officers. They've yet to really chronicle the coversation about the Ethics Code. Let's get some healthy debate running on some of these things that need to be aired out. It always feels better to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

I will make every effort to stay involved in hopes that we the citizens never get caught with our pants down as we have lately. This was a 9 million dollar lesson we learned. You want to believe that you elect these officials so you can go about being a responsible citizen, who can work, take care of our families, guide our childern, and provide the taxes to our community, for the betterment of our community. Not to have to babysit these elected officials and make sure they do the right things with our money and resources. That is why I feel like the CTLAC is a very valuable asset to our community. These people are not affluent, influenced, or gain anything monetary. They work very hard to keep the powers of the government in the hands of the people. I have never seen them propose any amendment that I couldn't solidly stand behind. To have a citizen start a blog "CTLAC aka the Witch Hunt" was a person who did not learn much from the lessons we have all been forced to learn lately. I find it very sad that the officials never want to ask any of the CTLAC members to be on a committee, as a matter of fact I saw our Chairman treat the women Ms. Padgett with such disrespect and cut her off while he has let others who he supports talked for several minutes pass the 3 minute limit at meetings. That was about as disrespectful as an elected official can get. Yet I have never have seen one of the members of the CTLAC speak at the BCC meetings with anything other than the utmost respect for the Commissioners and the citizens. I can remember seeing Mr. Smith welcome Commissioner Thrasher and tell him he would like to give him a chance to do the right thing for our county. I also saw Mr. Smith when he called him on the lobbyist scheme too. Good for you Mr. Smith we need you and many, many more just like you. We must all stay aware lest we fall right back into where we were.

Angela, Key2Life,

I am enjoying reading the real dialogue you two are having about our local political situation. The best part is seeing the emotion being replaced by thoughtful comments. It is so easy to get our egos out in front and to take a difference of opinion as a personal slight. I know my first reaction when someone disagrees with me is to go into overdrive as I try to convince them that I am right and that they are wrong.

I think all people in Clay County agree that we want an accountable, responsive, honest, and hard working Board of County Commissioners. I agree with you both that citizen apathy is the enemy. It is difficult to keep up with all the events in Clay County government, most especially while working, raising a family, etc. But, I think it is unfair to those honest, hardworking, accountable, responsive government officials, employees, elected, appointed or hired, to constantly be criticized. Government can never make all people happy. I believe, with all of my heart, that the vast majority of people who run for office do so for honorable reasons. Public service, based on what's going on right now in Clay County, can be a thankless job. A modest salary - $40k or $60K - fair and due benefits, and all of the criticism that every Monday morning QB can muster. For your salary and benefits, you can be accused of being immoral, lazy, lieing, stealing, double-dealing, and on and on and on. Sounds like a great job to me. Where do I sign up. Hah - no thanks. I realize that some of the above criticism is due and rightously deserved by a few people who are soon to be tried, but to paint every Clay County official, past and present, with that same brush is just wrong.

That's where I fall off the bandwagon. I, like Key2Life, make a concerted effort to be aware of what's going on in Clay County. Our cable company, Florida Cable, manages to re-broadcast the BCC meetings, but with no sound. I have complained, several times, to no avail. Two things: 1.) I don't let Florida Cable keep me from being aware of what's happening in Clay County; 2.) I don't think the County Attorney's office that negotiated the contract with Florida Cable, or the BCC that approved the multi-year deal with Florida Cable are to blame. I blame Florida Cable for being a sub-service provider. I will continue to complain, and if a year from now I still get BCC meetings re-broadcast with no sound, I won't be calling for a grand jury investigation, or asking for some commissioner to re-sign. I will let both the County Attorney and the BCC know that Florida Cable is not living up to their deal and THEY should be replaced.

I hope that the conversation about how concerned citizens can work to continuously improve Clay County government continues. Not just here, but out there too. The most important thing any of us can do is to VOTE. Be knowledgeable, and VOTE.

PS - to the CTLAC, momma always told me "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". It's tough for a County Commissioner who has been called every dirty name under the sun by the leaders of the CTLAC to then turn around and appoint them to anything. Elected or not, commissioners have feelings too. If your goal is to be seen as the angry, maligned outsider, constantly criticizing but not offering any reasonable, realistic solutions, then don't expect to be taken as anything but just that. If your goal is to be a part of a living, dynamic, citizen-based political action group that is trying to have a positive impact on Clay County, try a little bit of momma's advice. I bet it'll work.

PSS - Angela, I was at the meeting that you spoke of where Ms. Padgett was gaveled down after her 3 minutes were up. I agree that it seemed a little harsh, but I disagree that others were allowed more than 3 minutes. I have been gaveled down myself for exceeding 3 minutes. Trick is - keep it short. Chairman Rutledge is an ex-law enforcement officer. We should expect his style to be authoritative and abrupt. If you don't like him, vote for someone else. That is, if you live in his district.

Baxley- I would like to show you a copy of a public records request where the subject above was discussed.

rom:  Wayne R. Padgett [wayne.padgett@comcast.net]Sent: Wed 3/14/2007 4:28 PMTo:  CommissionersCc:  Subject:  Three-minute limit for public comment

Chairman Rutledge,I observed at yesterday's BCC meeting, your allowing a citizen to speak much longer than the three-minute time allotment for public comment.  Mr. Bill Garrison, proud member of the local building community, and member of the transportation advisory commission, and member of the charter review commission, was allowed to speak until he decided he was finished, long after the red warning light was activated.  He was also allowed to speak for seven minutes at a previous BCC meeting, even warning you that he intended to take longer than three minutes.  At least one other citizen has recently been allowed to speak, during public comment, as long as he wished.  I cannot help remembering my own BCC speaking experience, at which time you interrupted me in mid-sentence, talking over my words, undermining any effectiveness I might have garnered, and forcing me to sit down.  At the time, I was under the impression that speakers were traditionally allowed to finish their point or sentence when time had expired.  I am requesting to know the criteria for the use of public comment time.  Why use a timer, if it is going to be ignored?  What are the rules?  Are there exceptions, and if so, are these exceptions formalized, posted and executed in a non-capricious manner?  Thank you for your considerationJane Padgett, CTLAC

After I was made of aware of this record and the situation I then went back to check the validity of those statements from each of the prior meetings and she was completely correct. I would not want to follow anyone blindly nor believe anything without verification. Yes I was at that meeting and I was at the meeting where he asked Mr. Thrasher about Advanced Disposal and his lobbyist job. I wished I would have known so I could of had a camera because if a picture is worth a thousand word his expression was priceless. I beleive some of the statements made are because individuals are misinformed. I prefer to fact check myself.

Key2Life, you are very eloquent in your castigations of the CTLAC and the citizens who agree with and support the manner in which they desire to change the county's charter.  Let me respond to a few of your comments.

"The combination of single and at-large representations is a balanced approach to government."

Isn't it odd that it was only after more than 60% of the voters amended the charter to single-member districts that people such as yourself became so concerned about a "balanced" government.  We would still be living under five (or maybe even seven?) at-large commissioners if the single-member amendment had not passed.  I don't believe the CTLAC is against balanced government, but rather they are against the kind of government that has existed in the citizens' living memory.

"The charter amendments was (sic) a negotiation between 15 Clay Countians and 15 diverse perspectives. ... They took a full year to review the charter and accepted new information up to the last minute the commission was convened."

Each of the 15 members of the CRC was appointed by the sitting commissioners, and although I was told by one of the members that he was not coached as to what may be worth bringing forward, the remaining members agreed, by their silence, with one member that stated he did not have to answer that question.

With respect to a full year's review; the issues before the CRC were determined at the first or second meeting, and the rest of the time was taken up, with respect to the two at-large seats, by trying to make this amendment more palatable to the voters (my opinion).  The salary issue only came about when the increased budget came under scrutiny, and a developer recommended this change.  I wonder if he had any vested interest in the approval of additional commissioners?

I sat through a few CRC meetings during which time I heard one the members tell the group how ignorant the voters were to have approved single-member districts.  That, coupled with a comment made during the 2006 election that the upcoming CRC would get the at-large seats back, causes me to wonder what may have been afoot between the commissioners and their appointees.  During the CRC meetings, I also heard the commission listen to people who didn't even LIVE in Clay County, sing the praises of what they were proposing.  That just didn't sit well with me.  They should not have even been heard - remember; you have to state your name and ADDRESS before addressing the commission.

And finally, for now, you stated; "In the end, this is a government for and by the people.  I don't see a lot of people at BCC meetings.  If it's true that people put their energy where their priorities are then evidently, unless there's an emergency, county government - where the rubber meets the road - is not a priority."

Do I need to remind you that at 2:00 pm and into the evening, a great majority of the citizens of our county are working to put food on their family's table, clothes on their backs, a roof over their heads, and providing the parenting needed to see their children through to adulthood.  They place the running of their government in the hands of county employees and their elected officials.  When it comes to an emergency (perhaps a new unneeded/unwanted garbage tax) they do show up at the BCC meeting ... and they are listened to ... right before they are ignored.  Since you seem to be so in tune with our county government, perhaps you can help me understand how the commission could have been deliberating and planning the new garbage contract assignment for months and months, yet my commissioner resigned as a lobbyist for this company only a short time (hours?) before he needed to vote them in?  If I'm off-base, please let me know, I may not have all the facts right.  Neighbors in my, currenlty, at-large district seem to be upset, though.

Fortunately, the majority of the citizens of the County saw that all three of the CRC's proposals had merit and approved them. It's good to see that our County is moving in the right direction. I hope that eventually all of us can move beyond the negativity of the past and work together as a team to solve the issues before us. I am comforted by the fact that the vast majority of the people that I talk to have moved beyond the negativity and are interested in constructive solutions to the issues before us. On that note, I'm moving on from this blog...this blog is beat...cheer up folks and have a good day!!!

2006nationalchampsx2 I must agree fortunately a slim majority of citizens agreed with the three proposals and approved them. With the reform of the property tax that will come out of Tallahassee I just wonder if those that voted for them will find paying for more Commissioners salaries and benefits will be the best use of their taxpayers dollars when other services will have to be cut such as police, fire, rescue, parks. Then if you are the victim of a crime you can call your Commissioner, if your house is on fire you can call your Commissioner, when a member of your household needs EMS call your Commissioner, and if your district Commissioners doesn't respond then you can call one or both of the the at large commissioners so they can respond. I am seeing the rationale of that already.

I do find it ironic that the Builders that pushed for all the growth in the County and supported the Commissioners are the same Builders that recently descended on Tallahassee screaming for property tax reforms because it is hurting their business. Just as they influenced the Commissioners, they will influence the Legislators in Tallahassee. I have to smile when I see Commissioner Bush call the Legislators in Tallahassee thieves. Maybe you should see its not the Legislators but those friends of the Commissioners the builders. Now if we can get the Commissioner to assign the appropriate title to the deserving people he will need to be calling the builders thieves. I think that is the same statement that I have heard Mr. Smith repeat often at the BCC meetings. Where he says something like the county is run by builders, realtors, or something like that.

Of course when you are called to task to answer the questions posed by one of the true members of the CTLAC above you decide the blog is over. But I think the longer the Blog continues the more creditable the CTLAC becomes and that would not serve your purpose.

I would encourage all citizens to consider lowering the salaries of the Commissioners and stopping the automatic pay raises of these Commissioners. We as a county are going to have to make some tough decisions with the property tax reform do you want police, fire, rescue or automatic pay raises for the Commissioners. Because now we will have 7 of them.

Key2life-As Commissioner Rutledge says stay informed and stay involved  we are being taxed to get the BCC meetings on line. The county signed an agreement with Comcast to provide cable services this has a grant and the county has used 50,000 of the 300,000 to upgrade the equipment, and just like all good grants someone has to pay for that money. That right, it is on the cable bill of the citizens with one caveat it discriminates against the citizens. Because it only applies to the bills of the citizens in the unincorporated areas. Comcast is charging the citizens they discriminated against 11% interest on the money the county borrows against the 300,000 to buy the equipment. Commissioner Conkey wanted to stop this and just let the discriminated citizens pay back the 50,000. Commissioner Bush said lets just wait until we see if we need more money for equipment. Commissioner Bush being the seasoned Commissioner once you can get that tax increase over on the taxpayers lets keep it. Because we can blame the increase on Comcast and it doesn't affect his area it is incorporated. So certain citizens will pay for all citizens and anyone else who would like to watch the BCC meetings via the internet. Unlike the tax for the cable and internet access that some of us citizens will pay for. The Commissioners salaries and benefits will be absorbed by all the taxpayers, but just at what expense and loss of services. Then again if I don't want to pay the tax on my cable bill I can call and have it cut off. If I don't want to pay for the additional Commissioners salaries, benefits, and automatic pay raises we can sign the petition. Isn't America great! 

Mr. Smith don't worry with that new Super Walmart being built right up the road from you and the increased traffic you just might get that red light after all. 

Key2life-Feel free to contact the CTLAC and they will tell you I am not a member of their group. After all, I have used my name ANGELA not a undisclosed title such as key2life or 2006nationalchampionsx2. Mr. Machala has used his name and he is a member of the CTLAC. 

I would like to add to the information that I have posted above in an effort to continue to not only tell the citizens but show the citizens why signing the petition is very important to us the taxpayers.

The builders screaming for tax reform have been heard in Tallahassee and the counties are pumping budget information into Tallahassee to ask the Legislator to not do this to their budgets. Now the Legislator are being pushed from both sides the counties they represent, and the builders who are huge contributors. The builders have one advantage they have the Governor on their side. Governor Crist knows the impact to the job market if the builders leave and that would not look good on his watch if unemployment numbers rise.

Mayor Petyon has just backed down from his promises to raise taxes in other areas. He has imposed a hiring freeze and wants everyone's budget cut by all departments. All the elected Officials knows what is going to happen, but are waiting on the final version.  

The CTLAC has always been a very forward thinking group of people who have been very instrumental in making the county a better place for all of use the taxpayers. This is a forward thinking idea to not only limit their salaries but to make us the voter the deciding factor if they get a raise. The county manager is the CEO of our county he has over 600 employees that he manages on a daily basis doing the business of the people which is us the taxpayers. The Commissioners have 3 employees which are the County Manager, the County Attorney, and the County Auditor. They do not need salaries and when benefits are included reach almost 90,000.00. The Commissioners make policies and when things in the county are not being managed correctly they call the county manager and tell him what they want him to do.

All counties will be affected with the property tax reform and will have to do as Jacksonville implement a hiring freeze and cut budgets. Now we can pay for 7 people to make policies, or give the money to the county manager to operate the county and take care of the taxpayers. Listen unmanaged growth has caused us to have school problems, transportation problems, road repair problems, and we can go down the list we all know what the problems are in our own communities. With the property tax reform and budget cuts it will then add police, fire and rescue problems. The most important part we can play in this without harming ourselves as the taxpayers is to sign the petition. You know we have already suffered a 9 million dollar loss because of the illegal dumping do we want to keep hurting ourselves by paying Commissioners inflated salaries with benefits or use the money for the betterment of our communities. That is what the taxes we pay are suppose to be for and we need to spend the money on the betterment of the community for our children and families.

Call the CTLAC or email them and ask to have a petition to sign so we the taxpayers can contribute and have some say over our futures in the county. This is not about the CTLAC, but us the taxpayers and we deserve that for our communities and our families.