Mr. Mike Heemer aka:Finder

     This argument originated a few days ago in a "vote for Angela Corey" blog posted by Mrs. Chapple.  I couldn't leave well enough alone, and posted a quick response that disparaged her choice of political candidates.  The conversation went down-hill from there, with me posting some things that were probably pretty nasty and condescending and Mrs. Chapple making the assertion (I paraphrase)that it was hypocritical for a Jewish political candidate to attend a church in order to solicite votes.  In the midst of this Mr. Heemer made the post that is seen above. 

     There is a lesson here, that the World is a better place when I keep my mouth shut.  I'm sure Mr. Heemer will make his own reply, but I feel I had to weigh in and claim some responsibility because I started the argument that Heemer commented on. 

     I'll let Heemer defend his own words, but honestly, I feel that many of the things I wrote were much worse than his post. 

     I'd like to see this issue come to an end, but I can't help think that there might be more going on here than an issue of personal honor.  The primary is over, and next is the general election.  Mrs. Chapple is pretty big Republican and Mr. Heemer is the independent candidate for County Chair.  As a white guy arguing with an African-American woman over an issue of race, Mr. Heemer is going to have to pull out a real JFK moment to keep from taking one on the chin.    

Felix,

Your comments were fine.  But Mr. Heemer is going to stop calling me names.  He is going to start using his grown up words and “discuss how a comment makes him feel, He is going to say things like,” “when I hear you say that you remind me of a, or “I felt like.”  He is going to stop thinking that he can call me names and their not be consequences.  So let not your heart be troubled; you are find, I am find and Heemer is Find. 

Judith Chapple

Judith;

Let's back up a half a step and I'll take half a slap for my comment. I should have said was that I felt it was an anti-Semitic comment. You may or may not be anti-Semitic. I don't know you well enough to have stated you are and shouldn't have done so. That was very presumptuous of me. It doesn't make me a bad person. Just a person that didn't state his feelings very well.

The reason I will only accept only half a slap is this: Why bring up the fact that he is Jewish? Could you not have just said he was sitting in Church to get votes? But then, as I said, there was/is a lot of that going on with many candidates.

please don’t say something stupid like, “I don’t see color I just see the person.” That is actually the, "I am raciest, but I just don’t know what to say," line.

I was trying to point out that your comment about Jay Plotkin including the fact that he was Jewish seems to run parallel to your comment about not seeing color. It struck me as inappropriate.

Your attempt to be smug, is a little arrogant and self indulgent of you to think you need to remind me of the struggles of Blacks.

Judith, that was not an attempt to be smug or arrogant or self indulgent. Just as I don't know you well enough to have called you anti-Semitic rather than pointing out that it seemed to me to be that type of comment, you don't know me well enough to assume that there was any disrespect in my comment about First Baptist.

That's part of the problem with the written word. It does not bring across the inflections of the spoken word. The bold and underlined 'you' could easily be taken to mean me the white male, or just me Mike Heemer. If I don't stop to think about it and want to make an argument of something that wasn't meant that way I could go high and tight. But having read and reread your post, I would say it was meant as me Mike Heemer with no white male meaning behind it and I accept it as such.

As a white guy arguing with an African-American woman over an issue of race, Mr. Heemer is going to have to pull out a real JFK moment to keep from taking one on the chin.  

Felix, this is not an 'argument' over race. Or should I say it shouldn't be and was never meant to be. It is a somewhat heated dialogue over some comments that were made by two individuals that were poorly stated. Nothing more, nothing less.

Where it goes from there is up to the two individuals involved. Heated dialogue, as long as it doesn't turn to hateful dialogue is a good thing.

Oh, Felix, I'm not an 'Independent' though I am independent. I am and so far plan on remaining a registered Republican. I'm not quite as conservative as some but a Republican none the less.

The study of diversity, inclusion and tolerance includes Respectful Dialogue. Not pretending like differences and similarities do not exist, because they do.

Of course they exist Judith. Some of your experiences are the differences in treatment because of black and white. Some of mine are differences in treatment because of rich and poor. Others are due to straight and gay. We all suffer some types of discrimination over a life time. Some more than others and some worse than others. We all have our own experiences based on socio-economic standing within the community.

It's why we have wars. It's why we have hate crimes. It's why we have things like the proposed amendment 2 on the ballot.

It's why nearly every candidate that answered the questions on the AFF survey said they supported abortion for rape, incest or a threat to the mother's life but didn't want their health care benefits to pay for it. You can have one but you pay for it yourself. What they really mean is no abortions at all, but they know that is too unpopular a stance to fly so they hide it behind some other door.

Nearly all also said that 'sexual orientation' shouldn't be in our non-discrimination rules.  

You see, I don't like those types of stances from our leaders or possible leaders. I think anyone that takes those types of stances needs to stay off the ballot. If a person can stand there and say that it is OK to not rent to a gay person just because they are gay, they sure as heck don't need to be in an elected office.

And I say that because I feel that they would do the same thing to a black person, or someone that was raised poor as a church mouse, or someone that has had an abortion or someone that was Jewish or any of a thousand other slurs if they could only get away with it. 

All they've really done is moved their hatred from one group to another and will continue to do so. When their 'group de jour' gets strong enough to stand up to them and force them to treat them equally, they will shift that hatred to some other group.

Judith, if you'd like to drop me an email, my line is open here on MCS or you can look up my contact information on the SOE site. If you prefer that it be on a public forum that is OK too. Felix mentioned taking one on the chin. It would not be the first time and if I live a few more years it won't be the last.

That is how we learn. If I get so old that I can't learn something from someone then I've lived too long.

Mike Heemer

Mr. Heemer,

Thanks for your reply and getting through it without calling me a name.  This reply will not be long. 

I was trying to point out that your comment about Jay Plotkin including the fact that he was Jewish seems to run parallel to your comment about not seeing color. It struck me as inappropriate.

As I stated before to me and many, many others a Jewish man going to a Christian worship service on Sunday morning is hypocritical.  Christianity and Judaism are diametrically opposed to each other at their core. 

According to the New Testament and the Christian church, Jesus is divine, the son of God, the Messiah. In sharp contrast, Jews believe Jesus was a man - period.  This was just one of the many, many ways Mr. Plotkin had shown his hypocrisy. It is not possible for someone to be both Christian and Jewish.  I do not think it is appropriate for a person to play politics with religion.  I would have felt the same way had Angela Corey attended A Synagogue just to “hob-nob” with voters.

Of course they exist Judith. Some of your experiences are the differences in treatment because of black and white. Some of mine are differences in treatment because of rich and poor. Others are due to straight and gay. We all suffer some types of discrimination over a life time. Some more than others and some worse than others. We all have our own experiences based on socio-economic standing within the community.

In “Study Circles” this is something that we caution participates about all the time it is called, “Joining.”  “Joining” is when one participate tells a story of an injustice they have suffered as a result of racism/discrimination and then another participant tells a story and says “the same thing happened to me and I am not black, gay, whatever.”  Doing this makes you feel better but is totally devalues the comments made by the first participant.  You can’t fix my past nor can I fix yours, but if I choose to talk about it, all I need you to do is listen.  I don’t want 40 acres and a mule.  I got that!

I don't know you well enough to have stated you are and shouldn't have done so. That was very presumptuous of me. It doesn't make me a bad person. Just a person that didn't state his feelings very well.

Amen, you don’t know me well enough to call me anything but Judith W. Chapple.  Let’s ensure that is the name that you use for me going forward.

Regards

 Judith Chapple

Judith wrote: According to the New Testament and the Christian church, Jesus is divine, the son of God, the Messiah. In sharp contrast, Jews believe Jesus was a man - period.  This was just one of the many, many ways Mr. Plotkin had shown his hypocrisy. It is not possible for someone to be both Christian and Jewish. 

This is a fundamental problem with what passes itself off as Christianity today. Anyone with any degree of intellectual honesty recognizes that 1) Jesus was a very devout Jew and 2) None of these little sects which have sprung up in the past several hundred years even come close to the preachings of Jesus Christ.

When I was growing up Catholic, my mother encouraged me to view as many different houses of worship as I could. As such, I learned something from Judaism and some outsprings of Catholicism. What I came away with was all these other alleged christian sects was they were formed simply because some nattering little group wanted to be as powerful as the pope, nothing whatsoever to do with walking in Jesus' shoes or living in the way he preached.

Thankfully, as the groups are represented today, I can proudly say I am no christian. (Not as they live anyway.) I very much believe in the philosophy of Jesus but these sects prclaiming they speak for him are anathema to me. For anyone to defame a Jew for entering a christian house of worship where theoretically we are all God's children I find stomach turning. I am glad I have nothing to do with your ilk.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

It is obvious to me that Mrs. Judith Chapple does not entertain consideration of any opinion but her own.I also take her comments about Plotkin (for whom I did not vote) to be offensive. As far as I am concerned, it is offensive to point out the religion/race of a candidate as a point of contention in a public forum.  

It smacks of discrimination.

And no, Mrs. Chapple, it is not inappropriate for a Jew to visit a Christian church. And to vehemently press that point of view is not much of a witness for Our Lord. Christianity and Judaism are not “diametrically opposed.” Christianity and satanic worship are diametrically opposed. Judaism and satanic worship are diametrically opposed. Jesus was a Jew and the Jews remain God’s Chosen People if you believe your Bible. Furthermore, do you not know of Messianic Jews who are devout followers of Christ?

Mrs. Chapple, from what I know of you, you are a compelling and intelligent member of our community. Yet, when I read your comments on the blogs, you come across as blustering and ignorant. Your exhortations about Angela Corey did not compel me to vote for her. In fact, they almost led me to vote for Jay Plotkin. It was the fact that I felt Corey had “been done wrong” that led me to support her.

I believe that you are not anti-Semetic, but I can understand how your comments would leave the impression that you are, just as if I, as kaukasier, were to  speak about Barack  Obama's race: more than likely that would lead some people to see my comments as racist.

Lilyslore,

Lilyslore Wrote: This is a fundamental problem with what passes itself off as Christianity today. Anyone with any degree of intellectual honesty recognizes that 1) Jesus was a very devout Jew and 2) None of these little sects which have sprung up in the past several hundred years even come close to the preaching’s of Jesus Christ.

Listen in your attempt to impress me with your superior knowledge on this subject I hate to inform you that you did not. 

I along with many others with the, “degree of intellectual honesty recognize Jesus was a very devout Jew.” As were Mary and Joseph and all twelve apostles, yet there are some teachings that completely contradict this fact.  However, as I am sure you know as I said in my pervious emails the Christian faith and the Jewish faith since Jesus’ death are diametrically opposed to one another in their basic belief.  One believes Jesus was the Messiah, one believes he was just a man if he existed at all.

Indeed, the truth that religion has been woven into the very fabric of our national life from the start is an important point to make. Religious energies have indeed mingled for centuries with our founders' enlightenment, faith in reason, and reason alone.

When we speak of religion, what are we speaking of? Are we speaking about doctrines concerning something supernatural that people call God, some larger-than-universal principle that people say they believe in, and even want to worship, whatever that means? That's what most atheists and secularists think is the name of the game, which, be it Hindu, Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, they mock for its old-fashioned irrationality. Why should a modern rational person need such a belief system, let alone the superstructure or infrastructure used to sustain it? Or are we speaking of inner spiritual experience, which, believers say, changes their lives and gives them meaning—the varieties of religious experience?

There have been many, many evil things done including murder, slavery and wars in the name of religion or some religious belief system.  At the root of those acts you will find the radical teaching of hated of another person/human.   September 11, 2001, would be a good example of such radical religious teaching run amuck.  Lilyslore Wrote: I am glad I have nothing to do with your ilk.One thing you and Mr. Heemer have in common is your inability to have a dialogue without name calling and making prejudgments.  You do not know what my ilk is. You know nothing about me.  You now have a picture to put with my name.  You don’t know if I am Jewish, Catholic, Baptist or Atheist.  So when you say my ilk what are you referring to because you only know 4 things about me, Female-Black-Judith W. Chapple-Republican. Which of those ilks do you have a problem with?I know I am a new member to the My Clay Sun blog but I sure would like you all to consider the fact that this process would be a lot more palatable, productive and engaging if we could do it without name calling.  We can disagree without being disagreeable, rude, condescending, insulting or obnoxious.Judith W. Chapple

Traurigkeit_Regiert

Thanks for your support of Angela and sharing your opinion.  You are however incorrect when you mention the fact that I am not interested in the opinions of others. Open, honest, respectful dialogue is at the very core of who I am as a person.  The fact that it seems to be impossible to have that type of dialogue with my community here in Clay County quite frankly saddens me. I don’t think I have ever been around a group of people that you were unable to state an opinion or a fact as you see it without being called names, at least not in my adult life. 

I never once asked a person not to vote for Jay Plotkin because he was Jewish. To even insinuate that is a misrepresentation of my comments which were solely concerning him going into the church for political reasons.  I have a personal belief that the church is not a place for politics.

Yes I am well aware that the Jews are considered God’s chosen people:

 Deuteronomy 7: 6 "For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth...."

Deuteronomy 10: 15 "... The Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and He chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day."

 Many churches and denominations in Christendom have believed that the Jews forfeited their claims to God’s covenant promises when they refused to accept Jesus as their Messiah and when their leaders demanded that He be crucified. This belief was especially prevalent during the long centuries when they were scattered among the nations of the world, cast out of Jerusalem and the land of Israel, and with no country of their own.

However, with the almost miraculous re-establishment of the Jews in the land of Israel, as a nation among nations once again, many are re-thinking their conclusion that the Jews had permanently lost their position as the chosen people of God. Marvelous promises and prophecies were made concerning the land and the people of Israel in the Old Testament, but many Christians have tended to "spiritualize" these prophecies and to apply them to the Christian church instead of Israel. But now it appears that at least some of them are being fulfilled today in the literal nation of Israel. For example: "I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land” (Ezekiel 36:24).

Many peoples, of course, resent the idea that God would have a "chosen people" at all, especially the Jews. "How odd of God, To choose the Jews" is the familiar couplet. The intense anti-Semitism of the Middle Ages, as well as in Nazi Germany more recently and Communist Russia today, is no doubt in large measure a reaction against such seeming divine favoritism.

God’s choice, however, was not based on ordinary human criteria. As Moses told his people: "The Lord did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people" (Deuteronomy 7:7).

Traurigkeit_Regiert wrote: “just as if I, as kaukasier, were to  speak about Barack  Obama's race: more than likely that would lead some people to see my comments as racist.”

Look I have no problem with the Jews or any religion, race, creed or color.  I just enjoy conversation, debate and dialogue.  It is what makes this a wonderful country to live in.  I would love to discuss Barack Obama with you, and/or anyone and all of the reasons I think he should not be the next president of these United States. You can say a million reasons why not to vote for him.  But if you say don’t vote for him just because he is black that would be a racist statement. I will continue my quest to exercise my 1st Amendment Right to Free Speech, and you know maybe it is true people really can’t talk about religion and politics.  I think that is very sad.

 Judith Chapple

Mrs. Chapple,

I enjoyed your very considered and moderate reply. This response certainly sounds like the Judith Chapple of fine repute in our community.

My mother-in-law always advises no religion or politics in polite conversation, and I would never broach such topics in business.

However, I would say that of all topics, politics certainly belongs on the blogs!

I am interested in hearing your opinion, for I am not certain for whom to cast my vote. My daughter has suggested the Libertarian party, for I have no stomach for the candidates of either major party. Yet, it is the duty of a citizen to vote, and to make one's vote meaningful.

What say you?

Traurigkeit_Regiert 

I agree with you in that I am not jumping up and down over either candidates, and I hate the, “vote for the lesser of two evils voting method.”  However, because I am a very conservative Republican I will have to say that McCain’s views are more closely aligned with my own.  

With regards to the Libertarian Party, I do like their platform:

 1.0    Personal LibertyIndividuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.1.1    Expression and CommunicationWe support full freedom of expression and oppose government censorship, regulation or control of communications media and technology. We favor the freedom to engage in or abstain from any religious activities that do not violate the rights of others. We oppose government actions which either aid or attack any religion.

The others Political Parties; Democratic Party, Republican, Libertarian Party, Constitution Party and Green Party all are very interesting on paper.  However, because of Florida’s closed primary system if you enjoy voting and ensuring that your voice is heard you should registered with one of the two major parties Republican or Democrat. 

Kind Regards

Judith Chapple