Billion Dollar Boondoggle

Fred, i am also against this project big time. Toll roads are bad business. I posted this response to another blog. I got this reply when I wrote to FDOT about the project. This was in regard to choosing the profiteer (concessionaire):

I asked about the profiteer being absolved of any and all property tax. They responded ""The procurement process (to select a private partner) for this project has been put on hold by FDOT to resolve the property tax issue.  The FDOT will own the right of way for the FCOB project." And so they neither confirm nor deny the statement I made. My gues is the FDOT will stab us in the back by twisting arms in the state legislature to do away with property taxes.

What new info do you have that a foreign corporation has the contract? 

Thank you for the heads up on the Ammendment One sneak play. I will be voting NO!

I was using the information that commissioner Rutledge inferred at that debate.  I also looked at FDOT/the candidate for the chair/legislative proposed action(currently waiting until after the election), and the amendment 1 for the Florida Constitution.  Put them altogether and realized that the wheels are in motion to do this at the expense of us the taxpayers.

If you remember, Rutledge pleaded me culpa, blaming the State, Duval, and St Johns for the mess that it appears is happening.  It was his statement it was forced on Clay County.  Again this is ducking the fact that special interests have created this problem for their own benefit.

I want the Commissioners to stand up to the State, and tell them the people of Clay do not want this boondoggle and they need to go back to the drawing boards.  I understand Duval wanting to get better access to Cecil Field, but not at Clay Counties expense.  St Johns I do not believe is as big a proponent as the incumbant wants us to believe.

This entire project is for special interests.  Studies rejected by the County had better and cheaper ways to solve current and future transportation problems.

Todays economy and future economys should not permit this since it is something that could bankrupt us or create a tax burden that our grandchildren can not deal with. 

The political spin is it will create more jobs, bull crap, what will create new jobs are entrapenuers who will be creative and generate industry that will be accepted in the market and needed by the people.  They do not need a billion dollar toll road to do that.

The people can believe that spin if they want but some of us know better and can see it is only political hot air, created by those who have sold their souls to special interests.

Well said. I was there and was amaized at the lack of knowledge by a sitting commissioner. I can't believe how many puppets we have running this county. We really need to repeal the charter and start over. we have been on a 20 year down hill slide. I have been one to want the good olde boy's gone, but it really has gotten worse not better. We now have stupid and arrogant to deal with. I'll take J.P. over J. M any day

I will be voting against Amendment 1 in Nov, I believe this is a part of the puzzle with the beltway.  I am also going to be voting out those people at the State Level who are involved.  If enough people follow this strategy maybe the elections can effect this. Stephen Wise is one I will be voting against.

"Voting against" is part of my strategy, sometimes its not all about finding who you want to represent you but who you want to get out of office or who you want to prevent from entering office. 

http://www.ctlac.com/

I wish there had been more people around to listen to a conversation I had with one of our at-large candidates concerning this tollway. Ex if you were amazed at the lack of understanding from our sitting Commissioner you would have been appalled hearing this one.

This was a conversation with a real advocate of the road because of the jobs we can get from all the new cargo business coming to Jax. When asked about the news that Hanjin (that's the shipping firm that Jax is building a new facility for) told Jax that they needed to cut the size of the facility considerably, the individual had not heard that one. I'm not real sure they even knew who Hanjin was.

When asked if the Branan Field Chafee Road portion was going to be a tolled, the response was 'I don't know'. A further question of if it was, how were the families that live adjacent to the road going to get out without paying a toll, the answer was, 'They'll just have to drive around'. Folks, there is no around. Not unless we are going to build one for them.  

When we were discussing this hair brained idea of how to collect the toll, and that a trucker that was paying $5 a gallon for Diesel wasn't going to use that road and have to pay a huge tool, the comment was 'Well, we'll just force them to use it and keep them off the side roads'. How the heck are we going to do that? Are we going to stop every truck to see where they are going and only let them through if they are local?

When asked about how they were going to be able to support this road when we already know that it will only produce 74% of maintenance costs by year 22, the comment was, well they must know it will make a profit or they wouldn't do it. Yep, and they're going to kiss us first and still respect us in the morning too.

Oh and this one was really great. 'What's wrong with this being user supported instead of building it with tax payer's money?' I can't imagine a statement that demonstrates a more complete lack of understanding of this abomination.

Where do they think that money is going to come from if not the tax payers of Clay County? The locals are the only people that they really have a way of collecting from. That toll bill every month isn't subsidized. It comes straight out of the pocket of the tax payer. It's money that can't be spent on food or clothes or gas or a night out or even a burger at all the new fast food joints this road is going to bring in.

So instead of spreading the cost out to all taxpayers in Florida like we do for most roads, let's put the entire burden on the small percentage of people that we have forced to use this road.

The other one I hear is 'If it's a Tollway we can get it now. If we build it with tax dollars we'll have to wait till about 2020 for it to be finished.'

We can get a road 'good' or we can get a road 'fast', but we cannot get it 'good and fast.'

It is beyond my comprehension that our BoCC voted to go along with this when they don't have a clue about what the facts are. Somewhere along the line someone failed to do any risk analysis.

I'd like people to think of one thing. Pretend that this is your money. If you knew that no matter what, no one was going to bail you out if this project failed would you invest your money? Not me.

Now let's look at the other side. If you knew that you were going to be guaranteed a profit even if the project failed would you invest? No problem, I can't lose.

Have you ever heard the words 'Highway Robbery'? This is literally that and more.

Mike Heemer

If the state grants the property tax exemption needed to get the Boondoggle Tollway over its current financial hump, it creates a revenue loss in Clay County government that will have to be compensated for by cutting or lowering the standard of services provided or raising taxes - or both.

Isn't it in fifth grade that we learned how to solve word problems like this in math class?

Telling Clay County residents they aren't going to pay for this thing is insulting.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

If you go back to the BCC meeting where FDOT made a presentation. Commissioner Bush asked is this out of the hands of the Commissioners. He said they need the support of the Commissioners to go forward. Well to me that says it is not a done deal unless we have all pro Tollway Commissioners.

The taxpayers will pick up the cost one way or the other.

If I remember correctly D5 said that Clay, St Johns and Duval had unanimously approved supporting this tollway. 

Fred - JD, is that what you heard or did I misunderstand?

Mike Heemer

Well I would suggest you review the meeting verbatim of the last presentation by FDOT. Those were the words exchanged by the Commissioner and the FDOT representative.

Mike you brought up a good point in earlier discussions about how they're going to go about billing those that go through the tollway with no pass or transponder.  How much will be spent to collect tolls from those that just drive through and take their chances.

If there is no literal stopping place to pay the toll many will not pay, is it going to cost $30 to collect a $5 toll?  You've got the equipment, the maintenance of the equipment, the paper process, billing, man hours paid for by the taxpayer etc etc.  In the end they will abandon those revenues, reduce them just like they do with code enforcement fines. In turn this will place additional burden on those of us who do what is required and pay. 

I don't believe that it's a done deal at all, that is a diversionary tactic to keep people from getting involved in trying to fight it by saying its too late to stop it.  We can start at the voting booth, voting against those that who are in support of the beltway at the state and local level and encouraging everyone you know who is a voter in the state to vote against State Amendment 1. 

http://www.ctlac.com/

The meeting was Nov. 27, 2007 in the minutes as stated. You will need to review the meeting for the discussion.

Larry Parks, FDOT – Update on First Coast Outer Beltway Larry Parks, Bill Henderson, Jim Knight, and Brandi Better, from Florida Department of Transportation, District 2, gave a PowerPoint presentation on the progress of the Outer Beltway project. Lengthy discussion was held during the presentation. No action was required from the Board.

I can’t predict what route the beltway/tollway will take but I can predict my own behavior.  If I have to pay to cross a bridge to go to St. Augustine to go to the outlet mall, IMAX or the fireworks, I will change my adventure shopping trips to the St. John’s Town Center, won’t go to IMAX and will only go to the Orange Park fireworks or venture to see Jacksonville’s fireworks because I never have.  Is that what the planners had in mind? 

I almost always try to implement the simplest of changes before resorting to extreme and expensive choices.  After 220, 218 and maybe another road (don’t know the numbers for all of them) are widened first and that doesn’t work, then resort to overpasses, etc.  The conditions of 220 are an embarrassment. 

Am I being too simple minded?

The County Commission unanimously adopted a resolution in support of the Outer Tollway.

When the resolution came before the Board, and the vote first called, it wasn't unanimous, though.  Bush voted against the resolution to register his protest against the selected route.

Then, though, George almost immediately asked for a re-vote and, of course, his request was granted.  He voted in favor of the resolution the second time around in order to make it, at least in the symbolic, public records sense, unanimous BCC support.

Apparently, the folks at FDOT and Tallahassee are as frightened of the expression of dissenting thought as our own BCC.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

Resolutions can be changed by the Commissioners or the people such as a citizens group by Charter. Someone should check it out.

Thanks OneMann. I knew that I had heard something about unanimous approval of support for the project.

Angela;

Thanks for that input. Marsha's suggestion of a PAC is sounding better all the time. 

Mike Heemer

Form a group, collect the signatures, and let the people vote. The power of a Charter is power to the people.

Expect a lawsuit.