Homeschooling

I applaud your choice. I wish everyone took education as seriously, whether public, private or home. You just did an outstanding service to all of those other home school parents facing the sarcasm from non-homeschooling people who don't understand why one would school their child at home.

I recently saw a bumper sticker (it made me laugh out loud!) so I'll share it with you. It was a quirky take on the 'Baby on Board' stickers:

WARNING! Unsocialized home schooled children aboard.

Keep up the good work!

OMG that sticker is hilarious...I seriously need to get one of those , gonna google that now.....

On a serious note, appreciate the support. While there are many many people out there that are negative about homeschooling, there are those like you, and it's people like you who I try to remember :)

Miani

Miani,

First thanks for the information, but I think some clarification is still needed.  I did, in fact, say specifically that I don't have children.  I also specifically stated that I have nothing against homeschooling & specifically stated that I find nothing inherently wrong with it.

I did not specifically state what I knew or did not know about the various school problems you mentioned.  But since I stated that I don't have any children, I would assume that would be taken for granted.  Perhaps I should have been more specific. 

I was approaching the subject from the point of view of the parents excercising responsibility for educating their children.  But educating them in preparation for entering a larger part of society as a useful member.  This was in addition to the other reasons I gave.

On the problems & situations you cited, I will defer to any experience you have for the above reason.  But it does tie in with one of the things I have said consistantly.  When one comes across a problem, one shouldn't throw money into avoiding the problem.  And with all of the continued problems mentioned about public schools, it seems that we taxpayers & society have been avoiding them.

I totally agree with your assessment on responsibilities.  But the sad fact of the matter is that is an ideal situation & we don't live in an ideal world.

On education.  Have you ever wondered why public education has evolved to a public responsibility?  For the record, I did NOT require you or any one else to attend college & obtain a degree.  That was your choice & yours alone.  Please don't blame me or any one else.  But yes, you do have the right to provide for the education of your children.  Sadly, you did not mention about the responsibility to educate your children. 

As to the affordability, in one way, you are correct.  But yours is not the only viewpoint.  If one cares to get down to playing the embarrassing game of twenty question, & it has been brought up, one can also say that any one, within the framework of the law, has the right to have children.  After all, it's only the end product of a physical act.  But if one chooses not to think ahead to whether one can afford to have a child is another situation.  Unfortunately, we have all too many of those situations now.  You may want to disparage, or at least apear to disparage those who can afford to send their children to a four year institution or pay extra for home schooling by calling them "a select few."  But that is a very subjective view.  I don't know who you are or what your situatioon is, but to someone who is lower on the socio economic scale can say the very same of you or me.  It is relative.

I have absolutely no idea why you said your last sentance.  I am not trying to crumble any educational system.  On the contrary.   As I've said so many times, we as a society need to fix the current problems before we throw money around in order to avoid it.

Home schooling was just a part of the entire thread.  But in the process, I learned something that I didn't know before & that's a good thing.

One last note.  I am the product of a single parent, my mother.  She worked on an assembly line, did without, planned, saved for one basic purpose.  Instilling good values in me so I would do & have better than she did.  I never went hungry, had a good roof over my head & clothes on my back.  Leave it to Beaver?  Not hardly.  but while she was doing all of that, she sent me to a Catholic grade school & later, to a private, all boys Catholic college prep high school.  And, she still paid her taxes that went to the public school system.  So I do have a bit of background knowlege on that.

Rich K

First thanks for the information, but I think some clarification is still needed.  I did, in fact, say specifically that I don't have children.  I also specifically stated that I have nothing against homeschooling & specifically stated that I find nothing inherently wrong with it.

Indeed. You did say you did not have children, I missed that and apologize for having to refer to a question you had already answered. Also, I know you stated you found nothing wrong with homeschool , I also recognized that statement made by you in my thread .( my second to last sentence )

Sadly, you did not mention about the responsibility to educate your children. 

Actually I did, last paragraph, sentences 6 and 7 .

For the record, I did NOT require you or any one else to attend college & obtain a degree. 

Solo, how else would one obtain the ability to be a State Certified Teacher? If I recall you did say :

Speaking for myself, I would require that whoever is teaching should be qualified & certified by the state.

In the next comment you made, I believe you misunderstood me.

You may want to disparage, or at least apear to disparage those who can afford to send their children to a four year institution or pay extra for home schooling by calling them "a select few." 

I was not referring to families being able to afford a college education for their children. I was referring to the idea , that if it were required for homeschooling parents to be State Certified Teachers , that they would have to be able to afford to send at least one parent to become said State Certified Teacher. Which means one less income, as well as the cost of a college education for the parent.Not every family can do that, hence those left with the ability to homeschool, would be a select few.

I have absolutely no idea why you said your last sentance.  I am not trying to crumble any educational system.  On the contrary.   As I've said so many times, we as a society need to fix the current problems before we throw money around in order to avoid it.

Alright, I was not implying in a LITERAL sense that you are over there in an evil lab coat, planning the destruction of the Homeschool system. My point is, in my opinion, which IS backed up statistically and from personal experience, homeschooling is the best educational system in this country.Homeschoolers are constantly trying to justify their ways of learning to everyone on a whole. Plus there is a HUGE movement of government trying to shorten the leash, create more laws, and persecute homeschoolers in a legal sense for what we choose to do. Every time someone wants to tighten the reins a bit more, and make more laws and regulations for us to adhere to, it infringes on our rights to school the way we see fit. The statement you made, about wanting homeschool parents to be State Certified Teachers is just one more person out there that is wishing for regulations that will HINDER what we have. I told all the details and statistics in my thread, not because I thought you were against homeschool. But because I wanted to show you how WONDERFUL it is, so that maybe the next time you speak on this subject, you may lean towards supporting it,instead of wanting more goverment involvement in what we do.If the government is allowed to get more and more involved in what we do, we will lose the very thing that makes it so great.That was my point, that's why I said what I did in my last sentence. I'm not sure if you agree or not, and I won't presume to assume so, but you seem critical of the goverment's actions regarding Public Education( as am I ) ,so then it's possible that you can understand why I don't want the same goverment getting involved in my child's homeschooling.

We don't need any more goverment regulations, they are too involved as it is in my opinion.Legally I can't even submit any educational material on a religious level to the state,they have even managed to technically disclude religious educational teaching in the home. Of course , I just dont submit that material and its a technical loophole.Homeschoolers don't even get the same religious rights of a private school , who can openly educate their religious beliefs, as you know from the Catholic School experiences you had.

All in all, it's not easy to homeschool. It's frustrating to give your child the best of all possibilities.Constantly watching your back from the goverment, throw the general opinions of the majority in there, which are none too friendly to homeschool . I find myself in general having to justify my choices almost every day, I can't even go to the grocery store during school hours with my kids without the errant question and disapproving look at my response.

I still believe in it though. I'm proud of what I do, and I'm passionate about it. So every chance I get, I try to spread the word,give people the facts, and do my best to show the true side of homeschooling. Maybe I'll get more people like you on board, not just neutral on the subject, but really supportive about it ! Maybe the next time a piece of legislature comes up to limit our freedoms for homeschooling, you'll vote against it. Maybe you'll think of me, and possibly after all I've said, you could change your mind about thinking all homeschooling parents should be State Certified Teachers. If I've done that, then it's been more than a days work.

If not, I stood up for what I believed in, and THAT my friend, is a lifetime's work :)

Miani

Miani,

I feel that we might be butting heads on some points upon which we agree.  I dan't have time right now for a detailed reply but will do so in the AM.

Rich K

Miani,

I went over your reply again in the light of a new day & will start by asking some questions on things I don't understand or just plain might have missed.  Please keep in mind the fact that I don't have the intimate knowlege that apparently you have.  I have never had to send a child in any knid of schhol situation.

On the 4 years of college, national standards, being qualified & certified issue.  I'm still not sure exactly what you're trying to say.  Are you for or against the process of qualification & certification?  Are you for or against some form of national standards?

I agree with your assessment that it is more expensive for a homeshool teacher to be qualified & certified & that alone would reduce the possibilities.  But many choices are difficult & many choices are more expensive.  But look at it from another perspective.  Would you want your child to be taught by someone with little qualification or certification?  How about your health care provider?  How about the mechanic who works on your vehicle?  I would venture to say that even the butcher who prepares the meat you buy wherever you shop has had to go through some kind of certification process.  Without some kind of standard process of qualification & certification there would be little chance of expectation for accountability, verification or access to redress.

I also think that your feelings about certification being another chance to persecute homeschoolers in a legal sense or having regulations that would hinder the homeschooler is a bit off target & perhaps misunderstood.  Stating, as my opinion, I would ask nothing more of a homeschool teacher than I would of any teacher in the public school system.  And you are correct in that I am critical of  the actions & also the non actions of government towards the public school system.

You claim that in your opinion, homeschooling is the best educational system in this country.  You say that you have the statistics.  I, on the other hand, don't have an opinion on this one way or the other.  I've never studied it in depth.  I have also never heard that claim before.  I would also assume that if one were to ask a person who had the same passion that you have, but about the public school system, they might also be able to provide statistics to back up their claim.

I would ask that you explain your statement about religious training at home.  Once again, I know next to nothing about homeschooling.  I don't understand how the government can interfere with you teaching your children about either religion in general or your religious beliefs in particular.  In my opinion, using the intent of the founding fathers & the Constitution, the government has no right at all to interfere with your religious training.

About the difficulties you face as a homeschooler, I don't doubt your statements in the least.  Yes, I can see many people who frown upon homeschooling, probably basing their opinions on some of the negative cases they hear in the news.  Unfortunately, that happens in many situations.  But let me state again.  I am not against home schooling.  But for the benefit of the child & later, society in general, I would want them to be taught under the same rules & regulations that others are taught.  No more, no less.

I haven't stated it specifically & maybe you might wonder.  I also think that teachers, nurses, emergency workers, nurses, police & scientists are some of the most under valued, underpaid people in the workforce.  I'm not running for any kind of political office, so rest assured, I'm not sucking up to any person or group.  It's just my opinion.  Have a great one.  I'll be waiting for your reply.

Rich K

 I am definitely against the idea that homeschool teachers should have to be qualified and certified. I am also against the idea of increasing national standards any more than they are at this time.

Would you want your child to be taught by someone with little qualification or certification? 

I have absolutely no qualifications or certifications in the field of Education. I have nothing more than a High School diploma.

How about your health care provider?  How about the mechanic who works on your vehicle?  I would venture to say that even the butcher who prepares the meat you buy wherever you shop has had to go through some kind of certification process.  Without some kind of standard process of qualification & certification there would be little chance of expectation for accountability, verification or access to redress.

You hit the nail on the head so well here, I don't even think you realize it. Of course I want my child to be seen by an educated doctor, and my car by a certified mechanic. For exactly the reasons you end this paragraph with, expectation for accountability, verification,or access to redress.However, in the homeschool process, I am the teacher. Let's face it, I know my strengths and weaknesses better than I know those of my child's doctor, or my mechanic. I know my intentions, interest and ideas ARE in my child's best interest. When I dont know something, I look it up, when I'm not sure, I verify. There is no personal reason for me to doubt myself to the point that I feel I need a college degree to do my job. Would I want that certification out there to verify that OTHER homeschool teachers are doing a quality job? Under our current laws and regulations it is unnecessary, homeschooling kids take the same state standarized tests as Public school children, and they have to pass it. They have to be evaulated by a State Certified Teacher, who ascertains that proper education was given.They also have to provide a portfolio of the child's work in its entirety. The state is already holding us accountable, verifying, and giving area to redress, if the program doesnt meet the standards of the state, the child is failed that grade and required to repeat it in the Public School system.The system of checks and balances is there already, without the need for homeschooling parents to be State Certified.

Religious Training- Alright, as I had mentioned before, there is a technical loophole, so any homeschool parent can indeed teach religion. It's all about how you label it. The state requires you to teach certain subjects, and requires it to be " appropriate education ". Religious instruction is not in this list of " appropriate education" therefore it is not considered part of the homeschool education program. We can't include it in our portfolio's , anything that religion touches, we can't include. In other words, we can teach religion, however, it is NOT allowed to be part of what we call school.

I also think that your feelings about certification being another chance to persecute homeschoolers in a legal sense or having regulations that would hinder the homeschooler is a bit off target & perhaps misunderstood.

Of course it would hinder homeschooling.As I've said, not everyone will have the opportunity to become Certified, therefore, it would limit the number of families that can consider Homeschool an option.

Stating, as my opinion, I would ask nothing more of a homeschool teacher than I would of any teacher in the public school system. 

Public school teachers get paid, have benefits,and enjoy tenure on top of that. It is not unreasonable to ask someone who teaches multiple students, and receives financial compensation for it, to have a degree. To compare homeschool teachers to paid professionals is like comparing apples and oranges.

I would also assume that if one were to ask a person who had the same passion that you have, but about the public school system, they might also be able to provide statistics to back up their claim.

I would like to see it. Facts are facts, and our Public school systems can in no way compare to homeschooling.I'd be happy to list many, many sources that backup the successful nature of homeschooling.You would be very hard pressed to find even one from Public schooling. Let's face it, our Public school systems arent in a condition that anyone is proud of at the moment.

 I am not against home schooling.  But for the benefit of the child & later, society in general, I would want them to be taught under the same rules & regulations that others are taught.  No more, no less.

No more? Ok if we're talking about just rules and regualations...I hope you're not speaking of standards.The whole point in homeschooling is to do more.

A bit of backround. My son, attended a Private Catholic Academy for his first two years in his educational " career" . It was my first attempt to provide him with a higher education that what he would receive in state run schools. This was a long standing, excellent Catholic school, with wonderful successes, and a rock solid academic program.In the first grade my son took the state standarized test. He scored in the 81%. I'm clarifying, because you dont have children, that score means that overall my son tested better than 81% of the children in the nation in all subjects.

That was the last year my son attended Saint Margaret of Scotland.After only two years of homeschooling, my son took his state standarized test three months ago. He now scores in the 91% overall,that's a 10% increase! When attending St.Margarets, my son tested at a 4th grade level in math, and he was only in 1st grade. My attempts to convince the school to educate him in math on a level that was more his own, instead of the mass majority of students his age failed. He has an amazing mathematical mind, and without homeschooling, he would have had little chance to harness it. There were many other issues as well, in our individual circumstances, amongst other subjects, but I'm attempting not to bore you.

Overall, I dont think we're butting heads so much as having two differences of opinion. I think I'm more informed on this particular subject, and passionate about it because it is something very close to home ( no pun intended !) for me. You're looking at it from the sidelines,and are obviously making both unbiased and uninformed ( this is not intended to be mean ) opinions on the subject. We all know that with more information, we make better opinions. I'm sure if we discussed something you were very knowledgeable about, and I was not, I would probably stumble a bit over the choices myself.

In essence, your comment about negative mindsets happening in many situations is completely on target. That would be why I was attempting to share some of my knowledge on the subject with people who didnt have it. One homeschooling parent and child at a time can change things :)

I also completely agree with your comment on those industries and the people working in them being undervalued. That's one sad fact :(

If you ever have the time, I would encourage you to read up more on homeschooling. It would make you more prepared to make informed decisions on legislation, and with all of the issues that the Public School system is facing, it may help reassure you a bit that we have a choice. Educationally, this country is not in shambles, we are just on the wrong path. If parents knew the benefits of homeschooling, I'm quite certain more would get involved, homeschool rates are rising by 10% every year, so we are making some progress.

Also rest assured, for societys benefit, homeschooling does have a positive inpact on our country. We at home are teaching the future, and we're doing it better than it's ever been done before.

Really enjoyed the chat Rich, and thanks so much for asking informative questions and giving me the opportunity to speak my mind on a subject I feel so passionately about. It's truly been a pleasure!

Miani

Miani,

As I stated in a previous reply, it's a good thing to learn something new.  Good news.  I have learned something new & even had a bonus thrown in.

I was talking with my wife, who is retired navy, about our conversation.  She told me that while on active duty in China Lake, CA., she had the chance to get to know a number of parents who homeschooled their children.  She was impressed with what she saw & also reminded me that one of our nieces homeschools her children & is very successful at it.  All in all, she said that you were right, which leads me to the conclusion that I should change my position.  I have you & my wife to thank for allowing me to learn a bit more.

On the religion issue, I don't see a downside here.  You are fulfiling your personal requirements & the state is fulfilling theirs.

If I ever do caome across an issue dealing with this, I'll be better informed to make a smarter decision.  Thanks for the schooling.  JATFUR.

Rich K

Rich,

    I'm really glad to hear that, and I was truly sincere when I said I enjoyed the conversation. I very much appreciate the opportunity :)

    That's one thing I'm learning more and more about these blogs, I know I've definitely learned some new things, and new ways at looking at old issues.

 Cheers to you and yours :)

Miani

P.S I'm literally about to move, the moving company will be here at sunny 8 am tomorrow morning, so this is the last post I'll be writing for at least a week.

Miani,

I hope that you have a good move, no surprises.  Hope that you still will contribute on the blogs.  Good luck.

Rich K