P3's - Not the Kind That Fly

If I was forced to decided. Because my first choice would be no. I would rather have a choice to pay or not to pay. If I don't use it then I don't pay for it. If they are exempt from property tax then I pay even if I don't use it.

I hope everybody remembers what happened to Clay County when they opened up the Buckman Bridge. It was a population explosion. I know that made you happy Bax. But it didn't help the traffic very much. We're still stuck on Blanding and Hwy 17.

Nice to see you back on the blogs Baxley.

As I'm one of the people screaming, I'd like to take this time to reiterate some of the things I said at the Clay Hill forum and other places.

I am not against an outer beltway. I support an outer beltway 100%. I just don't support this outer beltway.

There were 5 choices for routes. The one picked was the only one that the state would not build. Why is that you might ask. It is because it is too expensive. The only way to build this road on this route was to make it a toll road.

Why is it so expensive you might ask. There are a lot of factors but one of them is the price of the land it crosses. Why then did 'Locally Preferred' choose the route? That's real hard to answer unless you know who 'Locally Preferred' is and they aren't handing out that information. 

If the project is required to pay property tax (a project built solely by the State would be exempt), those costs will simply be passed on to users in the form of higher tolls – more screaming. 

Bax this is the problem with the people that want this route. They have put out this BS propaganda for so long they have started to believe their own disinformation.

If the beltway had taken any other route it would not have been a toll road, therefore no costs to pass on to the users. There were and are other choices. Actually Bax the PPP has already said that if they have to pay property taxes or put in toll booths they will not build the road so it is not a matter of higher tolls.

They would have to go back to the drawing board and pick one of the other 4 routes or find a new one. And by golly I don't think 'Locally Preferred' wants that to happen.

Toll roads are required to meet 100% of cost of maintenance at year 22. Their own projections show they can only meet 74% at year 22. There is a $583M funding shortfall. Where do you think this money is going to come from? Increased tolls.

They want to build this as an all cash toll road. That means there will be no toll collectors or dollar snatcher machines. If you don't have a transponder they are going to take a picture of your plate, track you down in some DMV database and send you a bill.

Just out of curiosity, how much do you think it is going to cost to collect that $2 toll from that driver from West Virginia? I know that they will pay it right away when they get the bill. What about that plate from Canada? Do you figure Canada is going to let us into their database?

Bax, we can't figure out how to use a camera to issue a traffic ticket to someone that runs a red light. Actually we can but it is illegal in Florida to do so.

Think about it. If you use this toll road 5 days a week twice a day and don't have a transponder in your vehicle, you will be getting 2 bills a day. Are you going to write 10 checks a week for these tolls or even one a week?

If someone has Georgia plates and they get a bill in the mail for $5 for a toll in Florida do you think they are going to run right to their check book and pay that?

What about that plate that is so full of mud that you can't read it? What about that car with temporary plates? What about that car that has been sold and the DMV hasn't updated their database yet? The plate doesn't follow the person in a lot of states.

This scheme has more holes in it than a salad spinner. The only people that will consistently pay tolls are the ones that get a transponder.

Here is my biggest issue with this toll road. It was not presented to the electorate to get their input. Yes there were a few 'public hearings'. In the middle of the day in some remote setting and attended by the big boys of the project and darn few voters. The few that did attend really had no say because they were far outnumbered by the rest.

As I said at Clay Hill, the reason I chose that topic to discuss was because it is indicative of where the government in Clay County has gone and is seemingly continuing to go.

We have 5 County Commissioners that can't make a decision on what time to authorize the sale of beer? They have to ask the voters what they think? Of course this is a non-binding referendum just in case it doesn't come out the way they want it to.

Yet they will march lock step and throw their support behind 'Locally Preferred' without hesitation. This is a $2B +/- project and they don't blink an eye before approval? Where is the voter input? What makes this so special that they could not have put this on the November ballot as a question?

If that had been done and the voters said yes we want the outer beltway to be a toll road on the 'Pink' route then I and the 'screamers' would not have an issue with this plan.

You quoted an article about PPPs. I hope people read it. If they do, I think you will find there are a lot more screamers than there used to be. Why do I want to take the chance of this project failing miserably when I don't have to? There were 4 other routes to choose from that would have been built as a non-toll road.

Who is going to pay the price for that failure? What is plan B? There isn't one. We will just have to deal with that when it happens. I'll answer my own question about who is going to pay. It will be the tax payers of this County.

I would like for people to think about this for just a moment. Close your eyes and imagine 295 being a toll road. Imagine the Buckman bridge being a toll bridge. The toll on 295 is 15 cents per mile and the Buckman Bridge is $2.50 each way.

Now think about the cost to you on our wonderful toll road called the outer beltway every time you want to go to St Augustine or anywhere else on the East side of the SJR. Folks, it starts at 10 cents per mile and goes to 14 cents per mile in 2015 (two years after opening). The bridge is 'initially' tolled at $2.00 because that is where the highest volume of usage is going to be.

How much is that going to cost you? By the way, you have to remember that this is charged both ways. These aren't numbers I picked out of my head. These are their numbers.

Bax, this toll road is a disaster waiting to happen. And happen it will. The problem is that when it does 'Locally Preferred' will have already gotten everything they wanted because their money was paid to them up front. When the dust settles it will be the tax payers of Clay County that end up with a 600 pound gorilla in our midst and no way to control the drain on our resources.

As a bonus, let me tell you about another drain on our tax base that just came about. Did you know that CDDs no longer have to pay property tax on their golf courses, swim parks and tennis facilities?

Let me back up just a moment. Eagle Harbor doesn't have to pay them so I can only believe that the other CDDs won't either. Not only doesn't EH have to pay taxes on those areas, the County owes them just over $173K in back taxes and interest for those that they did pay. The bill was sent to the County a while back. I don't know if it has been paid yet but if not it keeps accruing interest every day.

How do you think we are going to pay all these bills Bax? Who do you think is going to pay them? At the Clay Hill forum I called this project 46.5 miles of bad toll road and I meant every word of it.

This is a huge boondoggle by a handful of people that has been sold as the best thing since sliced bread. And it probably is for some, but not for all.

I do not support letting them escape without paying property taxes. Do some checking on who does support that concept. If that means it doesn't get built as a toll road that would be a very good thing.

Those people in the legislature are not the ones that are going to be footing the bill when the feces hits the fan.

I want an outer beltway. I just don't want to sell the County's future well being down the tubes to get it.

Just in case this is considered a political announcement here is the disclaimer.

Paid political announcement approved by Mike Heemer, write-in candidate for Clay County Commission - Chair. 

Mike Heemer

The link won't open for me.

My questions are in bold print and italizied.  Thank you for your time and consideration.

You said:  The Outer Beltway is in a holding pattern until the property tax issue is resolved in the Legislature.  My prediction is that the project will be exempt from property taxes, and many people will scream loudly.  (Why do you predict that the project will be exempt from property taxes?)If the project is required to pay property tax (a project built solely by the State would be exempt), those costs will simply be passed on to users in the form of higher tolls – more screaming.  I think some people just like to hear themselves scream.  (Why doesn't that screaming bother you or even give you pause that this may not be best for the citizens of Clay County?)

PPP’s have been around for decades.  Most have been highly successful, but some have failed miserably. I look forward to the Beltway being built, and believe it should be exempt from property taxes.  (Why do you look forward to the Beltway being built?)I think the delay to resolve the property tax issue will actually benefit the project by allowing more time for bureaucrats and citizens alike to study the project. 

I am firmly in Mike Heemer's camp on this one. I will be sending a letter of protest to the legislature and the governor once again condemning this toll road. It is completely immoral to me.

How can anyone but a profiteer justify raping the wallets of the citizenry and thumb their noses at paying property taxes? I can not think of any other enterprise that is allowed. There well may be some but I don't know of any. Would anyone be able to enlighten me?

Toll roads are so widely disparaged we had a glorious celebration of their removal under Tommy Hazouri. Tommy should have been re-elected in a landslide. However, due to his enbracement of garbage taxes, he was soundly defeated not long after he was hailed a hero. The public is fickle that way. I think Harold Rutledge will learn this lesson the hard way.

For all the hot air on both sides of this issue, I find the proponents of this toll road completely lacking in the moral judgement necessary to lead. They are only out for the almighty dollar and don't give a rat's rump who they bulldoze in their quest for even more. I prefer to wait for the state to build a road if it's even necessary. No one has convinced me that taking away a free bridge and replacing it with a no option toll bridge will ever be a good thing for anyone. The head of the FDOT should be tarred, feathered and run out of Florida. His kind, I am sure, can find work with Ted Stevens of Alaska.

Bax, I always enjoy your input on the blogs. I do feel you are dead wrong on this particular issue.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

What read44 said: Why do you look forward to the Beltway being built?

'Cause when I look at it, what I see is another conduit for residential and retail development that will only exacerbate the county's most-pressing current problems.  There will be more traffic added to already-failing major thoroghfares.  And the need for new schools to be built by a school system that's already a couple of dozen of those $25-55 million each expenditures behind.

So, yeah, Bax: Why do you look forward to the Beltway being built?

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net