Sheriff election

Just because a person is endorsed by a union does not make them a bad candidate. Nor does it make them a good candidate. After all, FOP would've endorsed someone. They picked Mike Taylor.

I hardly think Beseler comes in as never having been in the position of being a union man himself. Just view his bios.

President, Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 104, 1980-82

Once a Sheriff they join the ranks of what in my opinion is worst than the union. They call it the Florida Sheriff's Association and Beseler is already an honorary member. It's a boy's club for the few elite of the State because they only have 67 members. They come fully stocked with money and lobbyist, and a lot of political power in Tallahassee.

As we've seen lately in Jacksonville its not equal justice for all. Just more justice for those who have money and/or power.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/16957860/detail.html

These objections by the FOP can only benefit the citizens. Violent crime is on the rise.

Here's a link to his letter submitted to Mr. Shorstein by the FOP:

http://www.news4jax.com/download/2008/0722/16954782.pdf

Mr. Taylor may be endorsed by the union but it encompasses many ordinary men and women. Not just an elite group of 67 people. The elite group all use the same playbook. 

Union? Not Union?

Beseler - $113K campaign fund, spent nearly $49K!

Taylor - $108K campaign fund, spent nearly $56K!

Have you looked at these numbers on the SOE web site? Over $220K collected in money and in-kind and over $104K spent. What is up with that?

Newman - $9K campaign fund, about $4K spent.

I've met Gary on a number of occasions. I like what he has to say. I also like the way he comes across. He doesn't try to act like the big man on campus, nor does he come across like a pompous ass.

To me he comes across as a good solid leader. I don't think he's some flash in the pan that is more worried about himself than he is his people and the community.

He's got lots of experience. I think he's got some good solid ideas of how to make the CCSO a better place to work and Clay County a better, safer place to live.

While Wyatt Earp and Bat Masterson are out there tooting their own horns and throwing cash around like it doesn't belong to them (which most of it doesn't) he seems to be trying to be frugal with his spending.

I think it might be a big mistake to overlook Gary as a serious contender for your support. The more I watch the other two, the more I like Gary. If either one of the other two win, there is going to be a lot of animosity around the CCSO. Perhaps the quiet guy in the middle with the team player attitude is the best choice.

Something to think about.

Mike Heemer

I think that 2 things will keep Mike Taylor from winning. One is too much of an emphasis on union suppot and too much reference to the past. ( makes you think credit cards and trumped up charges against political enemy's " real professionalism" right??????

Ex-officio, after seeing the mini talk Thursday night, I think you have the right handle there. Clay seems to be a place not really warm to unions in general. The animosity between Beseler and Taylor was clear. Mr. Heemer, it would have been nice to hear something concrete from Mr. Newman but he really was crowded out by the hatred seen by me between the other two. And the questions asked really were not very deep. Who knows, maybe this race will turn out like the governor's race in Minnesota where two candidates knocked each other so hard that Jesse Ventura got elected. Maybe Mr. Newman could do the same.

White Noise - used to mask or drown out sounds you don't want anyone to hear.

OGV;

I agree that sometimes Gary doesn't come across with a dynamic personality. But if you get the chance to sit down and talk to him one on one he has some good ideas. He may just be what this County needs.

He's quiet and unassuming but he seems to know what he is talking about. It just seems to me that there is a lot of dissension amongst the troops in the CCSO right now.

I don't think either one of the other two are really looking at what they are doing to that Office. Between the Beseler bashers and supporters you could probably cut the tensions with a butter knife.

I'm not real sure that many of the people there are really thinking about what happens if the other guy wins. I don't know that either would take personal retribution against the others supporters but you have got to be careful how you treat people and what you say about them. You never know when you might have to work for them.

I just get the impression that Gary could be the calming influence that Office is probably going to need after the 26th of August.

Mike Heemer

I think Mike may be on to something here. I just can't warm up to the prison for profit idea of Mr. Newman. I could list so many nightmares it should scare the general public. Our prison for profit scheme was booted out of Tallahassee and they have descended upon the counties. Lobbyist from the Fl Sheriff's Association no less.

I would asked Mr Newman a question does he plan on hiring any family members to work at the Clay County Sheriff's Office in any capacity, if he was elected.

I'm not a fan of unions either. If they are successful at not electing Mike Taylor simply because of the union endorsements. Maybe the citizens should start on the fireman's union, the employee's of the county's union, and the teacher's union. We have a host of union jobs in the county. If Clay seems to not warm up to these union jobs then maybe we'll be succesful at booting them all.

OGV,

Questions asked during a forum are submitted from the audience, but chosen by a committee made up of the membership of the group hosting the forum. That group establishes the ground rules, time for introductory statements, number of questions asked, etc. 

I was there and did not see hatred exhibited between the candidates for sheriff.

Good points made by all; however, the person who posted "I hardly think Beseler comes in as never having been in the position of being a union man himself. Just view his bios. President, Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 104, 1980-82" While I understand what you are saying, you are truly uninformed. In that time frame you stated the "Union" was not a "Union", it was a fraternal organization, hence the name.

Were there ever union talks with the Sheriff and deputies in that time frame? Police officers and the respective cities?

Were they endorsing political candidates?

They are now a Union because deputies were allowed to form unions after a court ruling a few years back. The union believes if they can gain political power then they can use their position, “call favors” and get what they want.  If I believed in that philosophy, I would do it too. Good job showing your point of view, even if it was seriously flawed.

BTW, please don’t tell us who you’re not voting for because it really is getting old. You have said it multiple times and frankly the members that are regular on the blogs are usually the same.

PS maybe when and if a new Sheriff takes office you’ll get you chance to sit down with him an voice all of your complaints from the past. Don’t bother looking to the future because you dwell so much on the past. My mistake, tell him you want to change the charter and have his position eliminated, only to have a real professional hired by the BCC.  Please don’t take this as an assault against you as I am not target specific.  I continually see you(r) displeasure with the Sheriff and must note it.

I have a question, the Sheriff said in his closing statement (maybe sometime throughout debate) that one of his accomplishments was a thriving PAL. Has this changed since the article in May?

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/051008/nec_277147158.shtm

I think that is the link, if not then it is a May article in the mcs.

I have a problem with unions also, but its not like the deputies can just go on strike say like at UPS. And in all may life as a resident I have never seen a 2% decrease in crime. I mean usally it is greater than that. So I may be wrong but when I figured in Green Cove Springs City and Orange Park City police reduction in crime (which was way up there) in with Clays numbers I get the 2% decrease. Angela am I doing that wrong or what? Why would the sheriff make that comment about the PAL if it's not true?

Pioneer, not to be starting an argument but I was in the front row. Mr. Taylor and Sheriff Beseler were nearly shaking with (fortunately) controlled rage. If those questions all came from the audience, I gotta wonder if they weren't would be contestants to a game show. For example, why is it important to run as a republican? I don't think so. I think people want answers to what we can do to better protect the public. Another question was could you say something nice about your opponents. What is this? I really needed a beer after that silliness. For what it is worth, the hardest choice for me would be supervisor of elections. All three were very polite and respectful and seem to have the skills for the job. How do you choose the best? I don't know but I would appreciate other people's thoughts.

The FOP has been around for a long time in Florida. Just because they were a bunch of frat boys the concept is the same. It is comprised of members who freely associate as equals for a mutually beneficial purpose.

Here's a link to the history in Florida.

http://www.floridastatefop.org/lchistory.asp

209 North

Here are the stats as reported by FDLE. Remember these are for Part 1 crimes only and does not reflect all crimes being committed in the county. I have separated the numbers which do not included the municipalities.

2006, Population 161,486, total Part 1 crimes reported 4,724.

2007, Population 169,047, total Part 1 crimes reported 4,980.

I don't know how you get a decrease in crimes when the numbers don't reflect that decrease. If you work with the numbers of the municipalities included you get 2.1% decrease. However, the Sheriff is not responsible for those areas.

The PAL situation is something they will need to answer. I have provided the link for the article before as reported.

Observer are you the blog police?

OGV

I've lived here forever and attended many forums through the years, including several this season. I am familiar with the forum process and have sometimes been disappointed with the questions asked, just as you were the other night. I'm sure most candidates agree that the questions like "Say something nice about your opponents" is trivial. I imagine that particular question was not from the audience, but by the group hosting the forum. The perceived silliness of some questions and time constraints candidates adhere to when responding is not the fault of the candidates.

I have witnessed spirited forums, forums that put me to sleep, and forums that embarrassed me. I have seen candidates embarrass themselves. I have seen them weep. I have seen them say things that should make them weep, but didn't. 

What I did not see at this forum was controlled rage from the sheriff candidates. I saw no rage whatsoever.

Looking at the question "Say something nice about your opponents" from another perspective---Maybe asking that question is a good thing. It was asked of the candidates running for State Attorney, for example. While we may consider it trivial, what's so wrong with asking it? Perhaps the group sponsoring the forum really wanted to hear something positive. With so much negativity, I can live with that question and appreciate a breath of fresh air.

During the time Sheriff Beseler was active in the F.O.P. (1980-1982) it was truely a fraternal organization.

There were two reasons, one was because they were not allowed. It was only recently (4-5 years) that deputy sheriffs could form a bargaining unit. The OTHER reason was we did the job because we liked who we worked for and the environment we had. No we definetly were not paid well, and we did not have the best equipment. BUT we enjoyed bosses who cared about us and our families.

In 2003 or 2004 we overwhelmingly REJECTED a union for the same reasons.

The majority of the people in the Sheriff's Office do not like what the agency has become under Sheriff Beseler's supervision.  Some have left, some can not leave as they have too much committed. But some simply will not lay down and have him ruin what some of us have given over half our LIVES to make this agency what it once was, proud, efficient, and caring.

A union was not the perfect answer and can be rejected again. It will not go away until something makes the deputies feel comfortable with the boss.  Peoples lives and livelyhoods are at stake. 

The Sheriff spoke to this last Thursday indicating that people will come to him OR .....

People who do the job should not have to worry about whether they have a job after this election, but that is the case today.  Hello, union.

 u said

People who do the job should not have to worry about whether they have a job after this election, but that is the case today.  Hello, union.

This sentiment has been said about every election for sheriff ever since I have been a voter in Clay County..from Jennings Murhree to Sheriff Beasler.

The problem is that when people are gotten rid of, they try to make it sound and seem like they were fired, layed off, quit because of their choice in the new guy, when in reallty their own inability to do their jobs was the major cause.  Or their feelings have been hurt because their guy didn't make it. People put a lot of emotion into the person they think should be the next new guy, all the hard work and many many hours of helping their candidate, seems to disappear into nothing after a loss.

Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle

 _fill in the blank__________ has promised that all the employees will be respected for their Constitutional Right to support whomever they please in elections. The employees will never have to fear for losing their jobs over supporting any political candidate. The only thing that he would ask is for them to continue to do their job with professionalism and keep all political activity out of the Courthouse.

 copied from an e-mail I received from someone wanting my vote... 

Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle

And my first order of the day is to issue smart alecks like you a civil infraction for violations of your pure ignorance (trying to be nice).  You spout off things you know nothing about and then research the subject matter when someone calls you on it or provides much more accurate information (supported by adios re: fraternal organization). How convenient for you, but you don’t fool me. I did not write anything you could construe as an attack against you but you threw the inflammatory remark at the end of your blog, which simply was uncalled for.  If you believe my original blog was inflammatory, I had no such intent to offend you.  My intent was to point out your error regarding Beseler and his position as the president of the FOP. "The Fraternal Order of Police was founded in Florida in 1950. The Florida Labor Council was formed nearly 35 years later." That's 1985, and Beseler was president when?

 You simply cannot be objective and look at the facts of any given point in its entirety.  I know who you are but I will not violate the user agreement.  Your issues are personal with elected officials and especially the Sheriff.

Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt (unknown source).  Again like I said before, which I violated my own vow to myself not to respond, I will not respond to your bashings.

Observer I didn't nominate you. I asked a question. There is a difference.

Next you suggest I not say who I will not vote for on the blogs anymore. I thought freedom of speech was a consititutional right we all have on the blogs. I didn't know it was limited to the few you pick. That was reason for the question.

Then you proceed to threaten me by stating you know who I am and would releasing my personal information on the blogs. If it did not violate the terms of service. Let me asked you unless you violated the law and illegally obtained any personal information concerning me then you don't know anything. Right!

I have never received any type citation from the Clay County Sheriff's Office. I had never had any personal contact with Sheriff Beseler either. So you may be a little off the mark there too.

The purpose of the formation of the Council was to establish a vehicle to handle independent F.O.P. Labor Units throughout the State of Florida. This was decided to be fully enacted in 1985. Of course we must all believe that in 1985 someone just woke up with a miraculous idea on that date and year. And for no reason determined the need to form a labor council. However, it would be resonable to determine they had encountered problems and was in the process of finding a solution when it was finally formed in 1985.

I can look at the facts. I saw the big political add that said crime had been reduced 2.1% by Sheriff Beseler. Well I guess if he included the fine work by Green Cove Springs and the Orange Park Police dept. Maybe he should have given credit where credit was due. In my opinion that was misleading again by the Sheriff. Of late he seems to be doing that a lot.

Personally I don't care if you respond to any statement I make the blogs. As long as you don't violate my constitutional rights or threaten me I don't care.

This appears to be a fine example of the iron fist coming out of the Sheriff's Office. Well you have no clout in the general public. But I can get a good feel for what the officers complain about.

You would not know a fact if it came up and bit you.

You know how to research articles, cut, and paste. As far as interpretation goes, forget about it.

Well, I guess you could get a job doing research somewhere. It would be better than cleaning toilets. That is if you were looking for a job.

This sentiment has been said about every election for sheriff ever since I have been a voter in Clay County..from Jennings Murhree to Sheriff Beasler.

The problem is that when people are gotten rid of, they try to make it sound and seem like they were fired, layed off, quit because of their choice in the new guy, when in reallty their own inability to do their jobs was the major cause.  Or their feelings have been hurt because their guy didn't make it. People put a lot of emotion into the person they think should be the next new guy, all the hard work and many many hours of helping their candidate, seems to disappear into nothing after a loss.

I too have been here since Jennings, and you have kind of proved my point.

Sheriff's Office personnel who do the job correctly, and consistantly should not have to worry, but they do. They should not be expected and in some cases forced to support any candidate, but should feel free to participate in the process. Many of them would like to simply do the job and leave politics to the politicians. That is why I listed this situation as one of the reasons a union was formed.

However, union aside, and there are two sides to this issue. The endorsement was made by the FRATERNAL members. You did not have to be a union member to vote for a candidate to endorse. Union membership is not a requirement to work at the S.O., but most do for the legal representation and protection from the whims of the Sheriff regarding employment.

Regarding discipline of employees I'll reveal how this works. The appeals board currently used is made up of five members. Two from the Sheriff, two from the employee making the appeal, and together they select the fifth member who acts as the chairperson.

In the past when any Sheriff (Bray, Lancaster) disciplined an employee and said employee appealed the decision, the Board supported the action. In most cases (I was present on several of these Boards) the members (two of which were placed on the board by the employee) would speak about wanting harsher discipline including termination. But the Board was only advisary and the Sheriff had final say, but never increased the discipline once issued.

I say that because in todays professional environment co-workers do not want to be surrounded by lazy, incompetent idiots. We depend on each other for our lives. We are strong enough and mature enough to rid ourselves of dead weight. I believe this is what will lead Sheriffs across the state sooner or later to trust in thier people.

Jimmaxie, I only tell you this so you can have the whole picture. I respect your views and defend your right to make them.  Thanks.

Almost forgot.  Had same problem with spam and changed to gmail. Problem solved. They have great spam filters and it is FREE from Google.

later

While we may consider it trivial, what's so wrong with asking it? Perhaps the group sponsoring the forum really wanted to hear something positive. With so much negativity, I can live with that question and appreciate a breath of fresh air.

Pioneer, looking at it again, I can understand your take. I will admit you are absolutely right that it did lighten things a bit. I have sat through forums exactly like you have listed. Maybe I am just getting too old for this stuff.  maybe I'm a beer short in my understanding it. We can agree to disagree, Hoss, because when I see two people as angry as Taylor and Beseler to the point they won't even look at one another, to me that's rage.  I respect your point of view. If we ever meet, the first brew is on me.

I wish they could keep focused on the situation. They truely do not care for each other and both may have good reason.  I'll be glad when it is over.

What a transformation you sounded just like observer! A very original thought You must be one of the double dippers. As Nicholson would say: "You can't handle the truth! But you are quite entertaining.

Our list of double dippers in the county: Beseler, Paul R. Jr.Agency Name: Clay Co Sheriff'S Dept

• Salary in 06-07: $131,027.00
• Monthly retirement payment: $6,559.45
• "Retired" in: 1/1/2002
• Total retirement benefit collected: $144,814.15

Crossley, Carl J.Agency Name: Clay Co Sheriff'S Dept

• Salary in 06-07: $85,383.26
• Monthly retirement payment: $4,010.71
• "Retired" in: 9/1/1998
• Total retirement benefit collected: $203,838.02

Hardee, Michael A.Agency Name: Clay Co Sheriff'S Dept

• Salary in 06-07: $71,951.18
• Monthly retirement payment: $3,548.30
• "Retired" in: 1/1/1999
• Total retirement benefit collected: $191,987.26

Hendry, Gayward F.Agency Name: Clay Co Sheriff'S Dept

• Salary in 06-07: $73,099.13
• Monthly retirement payment: $1,954.66
• "Retired" in: 1/1/2002
• Total retirement benefit collected: $123,798.93

Lacasse, Terryl C.Agency Name: Clay Co Sheriff'S Dept

• Salary in 06-07: $85,698.34
• Monthly retirement payment: $2,282.41
• "Retired" in: 2/1/1997
• Total retirement benefit collected:

Lawrence, Michael A.Agency Name: Clay Co Sheriff'S Dept

• Salary in 06-07: $74,527.81
• Monthly retirement payment:
• "Retired" in: 10/1/2002
• Total retirement benefit collected: $228,094.08

You know some people do have integrity:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/state/article444530.ece

This "double dipping" is a fact of life in today's age.  Many people retire and then go back to work shortly after.  Rick Beseler is an elected official.  He had to retire from his other job to run for the sheriff position.  Leaving his other job meant collecting a pension.  Do you think he should turn down his pension just because he plans on getting another job?  Do you think he should turn down his salary just because he gets a pension?   If leaving his other job was profitable, that is because of the hard work and dedication he put in at that job (along with all other individuals like this). 

In today's world, working after retirement is very common.  It happens in the business world all the time.  How many times does a CEO step down (and he receives a 50 million dollar golden parachute) only to be kept on the payroll as a consultant (and receive 1 or 2 million dollars a year).  This is the world today.  My father retired from a life long career in the military, only to go into another job a week later.  He retired from the military because it was time to move on, but he was not satisfied with the money that the retirement provided.  Now he works and invests his money. 

This is a capitalistic world, whether people like it or not.  I SEE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS.  In fact, if Mike Taylor wins this election, he will also be double dipping.  I believe he has already withdrawn all of his pension benefits…check the public record (as I stated above I have no problem with this, just wanted to point out that the other candidate is doing it too. )

  Anyone that is highly qualified to fill these "higher up" positions (i.e. sheriff, under-sheriff, major, etc.) is most likely going to have a lot of experience with a state run law enforcement organization....and that is the bottom line.  A pension is not an over night thing.  You have to vest in the pension, which means earn it.  There are rules and regulations to when you can be vested and start receiving money.  I really don't see anything wrong with someone that does this.  The money they are receiving is earned.  They put in the work to get the money.  Now, if someone that didn’t earn a pension was collecting I would have a problem with that. 

Did Rick Beseler leave the SAO becuase he wanted to run for Sheriff or becuase his employer asked him to retire or else?

I don't know the answer to your question, but do you have anything to back up the claim you just made?  I don't think people should be criticized for working and receiving a pension. 

I was just stating that I don't think it is right to criticize people for working while receiving a pension.  There is really nothing wrong with it, in my opinion.

209 North it is a requirement of the State with the resign to run law we have in place. As it states:

Section 99.012, Florida Statutes, states,

“No person may qualify as a candidate for more than one public office, whether state, district, county or municipal, if the terms or any part thereof run concurrently with each other.”

“No officer may qualify as a candidate for another public office, whether state, district, county or municipal, if the terms or any part thereof run concurrently with each other, without resigning from the office he or she presently holds"

Article 2, Section 5(a), of the Florida Constitution states,

In my original post I stated that Mike Taylor's union endorsements should make no difference to the voters of Clay County, and that the unions had "anointed" Taylor as their candidate.

Several of you have interpreted this my saying the Fraternal Order of Police is corrupt and is only pushing Taylor to support a union agenda.  If you think this was all I was saying then you haven't read any of my blogs, and you don't have a truly conspiratorial mind.  I know virtually nothing about the FOP, and if it had just been the local FOP endorsing Taylor I would have considered it as nothing more than a law enforcement "club" giving a simple endorsement for their preferred candidate.   However, the lineup is:

Clay FOP, Jacksonville FOP, Florida FOP, Clay Fire/Rescue Professionals, Clay County Education Association, and Clay Education Staff Professional Association. 

I am going to assume that all of these are unions, and when I see this many unions cooperating on anything I assume it is an accross the board union issue, something that involves helping the unions more than helping people.  I do not believe that our local unions are hack political influence merchants like the Teamsters or the AFL-CIO, but I believe that all unions always seek to increase the influence of unions as a whole, and justify this by calling it "solidarity."  I would prefer that union bosses have greater solidarity with their members, and in the case of civil servant unions they have a little more solidarity with the citizens.    

I also take issue with the Clay FOP vote.  The results don't seem realistic. I copied these results from another blog in MCS, so if they are wrong it my fault for not doing my own research.

Taylor          128 votes

Beseler        16 votes

Ennis           11 votes

Newman        2 votes

C'mon. 

Several people in this blog have expressed dissatisfaction with Sheriff Beseler; for myself, the deputies have always done me right when our paths have crossed.  I have difficulty believing that an incumbant Sheriff with an O.K. record would only get 16 votes out of 157.  As for Newman, he was at one time the President of the NAS JAX FOP, and I would imagine that under normal circumstances fraternal loyalty would dictate he would get much more than 2 votes.

128 votes for Taylor works out to about 80%.  With four candidates it is extremely unusual for anyone to win 80% of any type of vote.  Taylor does have a fat resume, but I find it hard to believe that he is that hot of a cop.  The vote results lead me to believe that it was not exactly a secret vote, and there was some discussion before hand regarding the union way to vote. 

As I have said, I know virtually nothing about the FOP.  What I would like to see is someone knowledgeable in this matter weigh in.  If the FOP is a positive oganization defend it, if it a union tool condemn it.   

Its late and I can not remember the numbers exactly.  I will verify the numbers and get back to you.Does this give you an idea of how dissatisfied we are with the Sheriff?  These percentages sound right.

Mr. Heemer, I was wondering how long it would take you to weigh in.  I've noted a pattern in your posts that you seem to prefer any candidate, even a Republican, that is an outsider to the big-money, big-influence circle.  Sometimes I wonder if you look at a candidates campaign contributions before you look at their platform. 

I'm going to vote for either Beseler or Newman.  I have spoken to Mr. Newman a few times at Fleming Island, and the impression I have of him is an experienced lawman with a lot of honesty and intelligence. 

I do want to vote for Newman, but I have a few problems with his campaign, these being the cogency of his message and the amount of his support. 

Mr. Newman is running as an idea man.  The problem is that no one knows what his ideas are.  You cannot win as the idea candidate if your only vehicle for conveying your ideas is candidate forums.  I have heard Mr. Newman speak on two occassions, at the Dukes BBQ and at Ridgeview. I believe that at Dukes he had 4 minutes to speak, that is not nearly enough time to convey complicated ideas.  In contrast, at Dukes Taylor stated the simple talking points that he was a hard worker and he would fight crime.  At Ridgeview Mr. Newman had more time to speak, but it was still not enough time to sell the audience on his ideas.  In particular, I think he needs to find some other phrase than "customer service" to sum up his law enforcement philosophy.  A summation is supposed to be self-explanatorty, when you say "customer service" it requires further information to explain what you mean, and I don't think the voter will connect with it.  In order for an idea to be cogent it has to be both intelligent and attractive.

Newman needs a website or something to explain his ideas to the voters. So far I have heard him speak about community based policing and a school program called GREAT, in a blog he wrote something about training that would enable the Sheriffs office to more effectively handle illegal aliens, and angela posted something about "prison for profit."  While some of these programs sound good, I don't know enough about any of them to use them as a basis for my vote.

This is a blogging community, if other members know more about these programs I would invite them to weigh in.

I am surprised at some of the posts.  It would seem that in the MCS world that Beseler has much less support than I had imagined, Newman has much more than I had thought, and that while Taylor has a great deal of support, perhaps more support than the other candidates, there is some disdain for his union endorsements.

Do these MCS results reflect the mood of the County as a whole?  That is too difficult a question to answer accurately. 

It is difficult to judge how much support each candidate has from the electors.  As far as I know there has not been any polling regarding the County races.  There is supposed to be a straw poll at the Lions Club forum, but I wouldn't trust the results of that because it will be a small venue.

To explain, it is an often repeated axiom that small venues are vulnerable to activist manipulation. For example, in presidential politics the Ames Straw poll is held about six months before the Iowa Caucuses and is used to gauge who is the early front runner in Iowa.  The reason why Ames can be manipulated is the winner will be the person who can get the greatest number of people to the poll, and it is not uncommon for politicians to charter busses for this purpose.  Romney won the last Ames Straw Poll, and while I voted for Romeny and would do so again, I suspect the reason he won Ames was that he probably threw a lot of money at it, and expected the Ames win would contribute towards a Caucuses win.

The Sheriff candidates were last at the Ridgeview forum.  Though Ridgeview attracted a much larger audience than other forums I have attended, it was still a small venue, and therefor vulnerable to activist manipulation.  Judging from the cheers at the sheriffs debate you would think that half of the crowd were for Beseler  and half for Taylor, and that only a few people were politely clapping for Newman.  The natural impression one would form is that the audience response matches the preference of the entire county, half for Beseler, half for Taylor, and a token for Newman. However, you need to look at the audience.  I say that there were about 20 t-shirt people for Beseler and about 20 t-shirts for Taylor.  I assume that if you show up in a candidates t-shirt that you are a committed supporter, and I am guessing that many of the t-shirt activists are closely connected to the Sheriffs department. 

If you can get 20 hard-core an auditorium clapping loudly it can sound like the entire audience is giving an enthusiastic response.  Also, there is a politeness about clapping in that once it starts everyone else joins in.  Following each Beseler and Taylor statement there was immediate, loud applause.  In contrast, there was a pause after each Newman statement, followed by scattered, polite applause. 

The crowd had thinned out some by the time the Sheriffs spoke, so that at this point the "activists" made up a pretty good percentage of the audience.  The result was that when Besler spoke, immediate, thunderous applouse from his shirts, no clapping from the Taylor shirts, and polite clapping from the rest of the audience.

When Taylor spoke, there was immediate and thunderous applause from his shirts, no clapping from the Beseler shirts, and polite clapping from the rest of the audience.

The reason that Newman got such a sparse response is because it was a real response.  No clapping from either the Beseler or Taylor shirts, so the applause was much, much less because the loudest people in the room were silent.

I think Newman has more support than people think, but it is the support of normal voters rather than motivated activists.  The bad part of activism is that it is polarizing and can result in the animosity we are now seeing between the Besler and Taylor campaigns.  Regarding the Lion's Club straw poll, the winner will be the person who can get the most people down to the club.  The probability is the winner will be either Beseler or Taylor because activists show up for everything so each can be expected to have a strong contingent.  As for normal voters who are not quite so motivated, I don't think there will be that many who would want to go to a meet and greet; there are plenty of people that vote, but only a small number that regularly attend Republican events. 

Mr. Heemer, I was wondering how long it would take you to weigh in.  I've noted a pattern in your posts that you seem to prefer any candidate, even a Republican, that is an outsider to the big-money, big-influence circle.  Sometimes I wonder if you look at a candidates campaign contributions before you look at their platform. 

Felix;

I am a Republican, but I am not a straight party line voter. I look at the individual person or issue and go with what I think is the best.

Do I tend to shy away from the big-money/influence? You bet. Do I look at their financials on the SOE web site? You bet. How else are you supposed to know where their money is coming from?

As for Newman (or any other candidate) having a way to spread their ideas is tough. Do you have any idea how expensive that is? That's another reason I look at the financials. Take a look and see how much money has been spent on web sites etc. But even there what you really see is written sound bites.

I'd love to have a couple of hours a week to speak to various groups to tell them my thoughts and ideas. Time to answer questions but more importantly to ask questions. That's where you find out what people really think.  Isn't going to happen. Not for me or anyone else. What you get is opportunities for sound bites.

If you are running on a comparative shoestring it is tough to get more than a 3 or 4 minute sound bite. It is even worse if you are not a Republican because nearly every 'forum' is a Republican forum. After the Primaries there will be even fewer chances. I'm not complaining, just stating a fact.

As for ideas, I know the privatizing of the jail is not a popular idea. And quite honestly I think it probably isn't a good idea either. I believe Gary the same. But I think he's also smart enough to know that you have to at least look at all the ideas. To categorically dismiss an idea without some study is counter-productive. You study it, weigh the good and bad points and then make a decision.

Mike Heemer

Mike I believe a look at the "prison for profit" is what will make the people reject this idea. So I will provide a link for anyone who is so minded to read until your heart's content. You can go to the Hall of Shame and pick the State. You can go to an individual organization and research their record. You can read the quotes of the day.

http://www.privateci.org/

I have talked with numerous citizens in our county concerning the amendments of the CTLAC. The single biggest thing I got complaints about was Sheriff Beseler. I think that is a better indication than the forums you speak about and the people who attend.

I agree Felix most of the deputies that I come across are good people doing a difficult job. We are not electing the deputies. I think the numbers you have provided would be a clear indicator of what is coming out of the Sheriff's Office. I think the groups (unions) that have come out in support of Taylor is sending a clear message they want Beseler out in support of those deputies. It will be that deputy that shows up in the event something happens. As was stated to me the Sheriff doesn't do patrol. I agree, and neither does he show up when you call 911.

You know the problems that are happening in Jacksonville did not happen overnight. They have been the murder capital for 12 of the last 17 years. Their lack of action has caused this to have serious consequences in their county. Now we hear it will not be fixed overnight. Duh, it didn't get that way overnight either. They are our neighboring county and crime is crossing the line.

I would encourage people to look beyond today and see what they think the next 4 years of increased crime and problems will be in the county. If you're happy with status quo stay the course. If you want to see if we can make improvements make the change.

When the smoke clears on the close of the night of August 26th there will be a winner and losers in the Sheriff’s race. Either the same Sheriff will continue to be beat on or there will be a new one for folks to beat on. I am taking notes and I bet the same malcontents on these blogs will be unhappy with the next guy in a short time and the next Sheriff. No one will be 100% satisfied and someone will find fault with all of them. I commend anyone that runs for public office and feel sorry for the ones that win as they will be labeled pond scum before they leave office regardless of their record. No wonder very few throw their name in the hat. Who needs or wants the B.S.

Angela;

I've read this one from another post you put here if I remember correctly. But my point was that you need to look at all ideas. I agree with you putting this address out here again though. The voters need to know what privatization would mean. The elected official is not the only one that needs to look at the idea and express their views.

Magnum;

Shoot if I could walk away at the end of serving as the Chair and be known as something as high up as pond scum I would feel like I had served well and accomplished a lot. I certainly understand the sentiment though. For some reason we have a tendency to attach super powers to our elected officials.

In most cases they are just plain folks trying to do a job that no one else was willing to take. Sometimes they just get it wrong. But as long as they are honest and ethical and not trying to pad their bank accounts or resume or future job opportunities that's usually the best you can hope for.

Heck one of the greatest batters ever only got it right 40% of the time.

Mike Heemer

Angela-- I had been determined not to come on this blog site again but you have baited me well.  Let me clear up the false impression you're throwing out there about my statement regarding contracting out jails.

  The only time I mentioned in a public forum that I would support contracted jails was at the very first forum which was held at the Thrasher-Horne by the FOP.  It was never mentioned  again at a forum attended by the public.  What you may or may not know is that within a week of that public forum by the FOP they held two subsequent forums at their FOP Lodge.  These were held for any of the members who were unable to attend the forum the week before.  Well, before I attended them I had time to research the topic ( thanks to Google) and got a more informed perception of the problems.  The first FOP forum at the Lodge was attended by three (yes--3) members.  I told them at that time that I had reversed my stance and gave my reasons why.  The second forum at the Lodge was attended by one (yes--1) member.  I again stated my change.  This was filmed by the FOP both times.  

    Now-- with a decreasing budget, and with all of us having to develop an "out of the box" way of thinking,  contracting out the jail may not be a bad idea  as a POTENTIAL solution. 

Our jail is over crowded and reaches over capacity quite often.  This puts our Correctional Officers safety at stake.  It also puts our county at stake for lawsuits.  Judges are now relesing people at bond hearings with time served so room can be made to hold our othewr prisoners.  The money that Sheriff Beseler counted on to purchase land for a new P-farm for sentenced prisoners is gone due to the tax rollback. I spoke with the County Manager on this issue and he confirmed the money is no longer there. We need to think of new and innovative ways now-- not later because it's already too late for us to handle this problem.  That's why it's so important that when elected Sheriff I will establish a Citizens Advisory Board to help guide the Sheriff's into the future with new and more innovative, cost saving ideas.  Contracting is only one idea.  We need more and more input from everyone on how we can solve this problem.  I for one will not sacrifice the safety of any employee that works for me by an overcrowded jail, nor will I sacrifice the safety of the public by having to continue releasing those people who were arrested only hours before back into the public with "time served".  Our criminal justice system has got to be stronger than that. 

 Now for the last answer to a question by you that deserves no answer-- Again, you, like others  have lowered yourself to bring my family into the campaign. The answer to your question about whether or not I will employ one of my family members if elected. The answer is NO.  My wife is perfectly happy in retirement being a first time grandmother.  I only have one other family member in the area and she is the mother of my Granddaughter.  She is perfectly happy doing the things she does in life. 

Please-- don't bring up my family again. You only sink to the level of a bottom feeder. 

I cannot under any circumstances support the "prison for profit" scam. I have heard some of your ideas and agree with many. I believe you have an impressive resume as well. Just for the record, I didn't bring up your wife you did. I just asked a fair question that I think people need to know the answer. I did not attack your family either. I never have on these blog. Just asked a fair question.

Next if Clay County can come up with 9 million dollars to clean up the landfill and 30 million for a courthouse. They can come up with the money regardless of the tax rollbacks. That requires elimimating the waste and abuse in county government. I think Clay County would only benefit from that elimination.

Next Beseler has publicly stated the jail is full of people who have license that have been suspended or revoke. I think that is a by product of his ticket campaign gone bad. While I don't support people driving without license I think that can be handled a different way than taking up space in the county jail.

Beseler: "The Sheriff said the majority of people in the Clay County Jail are there for suspended licenses."

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19211460

With today's modern technology they have GPS tracking devices that can be used for low risk offenders. They have some where they are required to pay the county 10.00 for each day they are monitored. That's how the county can make money instead of the cost to house these people and we pay for it. I think Clay County should get actively involved in the mental health courts, drug courts, and continue to strongly support juvinile courts and treatment based programs. I think we should support ready4work and other programs. At the present we have a system set up for failure and they will be back. Then we continue to house and feed these people at a tremendous cost to the taxpayers. Fl has not been known to be a proactive state.

I don't think you just keep throwing money at law enforcement and hope we can arrest our way out of all these problems. I don't think Jacksonville can either.

Likewise I have never attacked Mr Taylor's family. I think he has an impressive resume as well. I think it is ironic they will attack the FOP because they are watchdog for legislation that comes out of Tallahassee. It benefits them all with such things as Bill of Rights for Law Enforcement Officers and many other things that protect their jobs, salaries, and benefits.

Because if somebody is not watching them in Tallahassee. They will attach something such as the legal right to double dip to help a friend. It always comes at a huge price tag to the taxpayers.

Respectfully,

Angela

Also to let the public know. They will have a team of assessors visiting Clay County on Tuesday if you have had problems with the Sheriff's Office.

Here's a link to the press release:

http://www.claysheriff.com/05_01_00news.asp?NewsID=367

Its nice to have a directive or policy but if they don't follow it then it is worthless. I have come in contact with many people in the county with problems. I have directed them to the FBI with their complaints. This is also an avenue to report those grievances.

Just for the record, I didn't bring up your wife you did. I just asked a fair question that I think people need to know the answer.

Actually you did bring his family into the conversation by asking:

I would asked Mr Newman a question does he plan on hiring any family members to work at the Clay County Sheriff's Office in any capacity, if he was elected.

His response about his wife was simply to explain to you he has only two relatives in the area. Three if you count the new granddaughter, but she may be a little young to be working.  

Is there some reason you feel the need to ask him that and not the rest of the candidates? Why would you take upon yourself to ask this question? Why do you think it is fair and that 'people need to know'?

Personally I don't think it is any of your business nor anyone else's business.

Mike Heemer

A long history of nepotism and many other isms in our county. Having knowledge that he has had a family member work in the Sheriff's Office. I thought it would be a fair question if he planned on carry out a tradition that has a history here. That's all.

Mr. Heemer, most posters would have attacked me for that little jab; instead, you went on to further clarify your point. I am starting to suspect that you might have some substance. Keep this up and might have to vote for you in November.

You have stated that your party affiliation is Republican, nonetheless, you are running as an independent, so for me to vote for you would be to cross the party line. I am a dedicated Republican, and while I am willing to cross the line I have to give deliberate consideration before doing so.

Why would I be willing to vote for someone other than a Republican, in this particular case, vote for an independent as a county commissioner?

It is because it looks like there is some monkey-business going on with the 5+2 issue. From the CRC to the lawsuit, it smells more and more like something underhanded is going on. I am not going to lay the blame on the Republicans, but there are a number of Republicans involved, and one single Republican candidate running for Chair.

At this point I would consider a vote for Mike Heemer to be a vote against whatever ill-defined monkey-business is going on.

Another thing to consider is whether it best serves the county for every single commissioner to be a Republican. If 5+2 stays, and if both independents win elections there will be 2 independents on the County Commission and 5 Republicans. I can live with that because it will still be mostly Republican but will allow for an alternate point of view. If we go back to 5 commissioners and Mr. Catchpole wins, it will be 4 Republicans and 1 independent on the Commission. That might not be so bad either.

Back to Sheriff issue

Mr. Heemer, you have stated that communicating candidate ideas to the public is very expensive. You are a candidate, and I would expect that you would know much more about it than I would. However, I do not consider web-sites to be expensive, and I consider them to be a necessity. Quite simply, many, many more people will type in a web address than will go to a forum to hear a candidate.

My personal website is on powweb. It costs me about $80.00 a year, it took me about 30 minutes after activation to set it up so that I could post, and I was able to pick a personalized web address. It has virtually unlimited disk space, and at this point I wouldn’t be surprised if I had 100 pages of text on-line. That is more than enough space for any candidate to explain exactly what they mean on a variety of issues.

I am strictly a text man, but a personal web-page can be set up to perform a variety of functions. You can upload pictures. They say that a picture is worth a thousand words; In the case of Mr. Newman, I would say that a half-dozen pictures would better illustrate his law-enforcement, civic, and life experience than his three minute spiel about his qualifications.

A personal website can also be set up to accept contributions, though that would also bring problems relating to fund disclosure. You can also set it up to collect names from people who would be willing to volunteer.

Mr. Heemer, you have made the comment that all you see on candidate web-sites are written talking points. Tentatively, I agree, but it is an issue I will have to research. When I get a chance I will check out the Beseler and Taylor sites and post my impressions.

I spoke earlier of the distinction between Republicans and independents; many of our races offer nothing except for Republican candidates, you could also say that there is a distinction between the money/influence Republicans and the grass-root Republican candidates.

I am a resident of District 5 and at the Ridgeview forum I listened with interest to our district candidates. I had come in with the attitude of "anyone but Rutledge," but he did better than I would have expected. On two previous occasions at the BCC I heard him say some things that I considered idiotic; now I’m not so sure.

While I am on the fence regarding Rutledge, I was impressed by some of Weisenburger’s comments. In particular, I like the way answered the question of whether the county should finance a union coordinator. It is too common for politicians to patronize a stupid question and give it more respect than it deserves so as not to anger anyone. Weisenburger simply stated that it was a throw-out question, something that a union would put on the table as a token during negotiations, but would be willing to throw out to get what they really wanted. I don’t think he delivered his answer very well, but I think his answer shows that this is someone who might know a few things and is willing to bypass political posturing to get to the heart of a matter.

I wasn’t able to find Sheriff Beseler’s campaign site; however, if you look at the Sheriff’s office page you find a picture of the Sheriff, along with the text: Sheriff Rick Beseler integrity fairness caring teamwork. That has some similarities to an advertisement.

I was able to find Mr. Taylors site at http://www.miketaylorforclaysheriff.com/

Is the page fluff, nothing more than sound-bites?

His slogan seems to be: Together we will make a difference!

Below it says: I am committed to restoring Leadership and Vision to what was once a very professional law enforcement organization. I sincerely appreciate all of your support. Together we will make a difference.

I opened "click to hear Mike’s vision for Clay County," and got a pretty decent campaign speech with the following points:

Having a nationally accredited Sheriff office

Community oriented policing

Retaining experienced officers

Work closely with county government and community leaders

Sheriff will be accountable

I have a few concerns. My major concern is about accreditation. Taylor led off with this and acted like it was very important, but he was vague enough about it that I suspect it might be a bunch of BS.

My other concern is that Taylor’s "community oriented policing" sounds an awful lot like Newman’s "community based policing." I am going to have to research to find how, and if they differ.

I didn’t see much else of note on the site. He mentions a rising crime-rate, a high turnover/ loss of experienced officers, a dropping rate of crimes solved, and accuses Sheriff Beseler of over-inflating the budget so he could turn in a surplus at the end of the year "to political fanfare."

I don’t know. There is a lot that is just talking points, but overall it is a pretty good presentation.

The website http://www.beselerforsheriff.com/

Excellent suggestions for Mike Heemer and Mr. Newman.

The numbers are correct asI remember. The vote was held after the forum @ the Thrasher Horne[which was advertised to the public], a lot of people could have seen the canidates then and known what is being talked about in the blog's now. The incumbent chose not to participate, but sent one of his letters stating that he did not see the sense in debating w/canidates that had not qualified[this is from memory]. At the time there was 4 canidates and three participated. The FOP vote was based  mostly on this forum. Braveheart[Newman] lost all the Corrections people with his idea to privatize jailThey are all State Employees and this would jepordize their retirement. Mr Ennis is a former FOP president with a lot of friends but just did not do well.If Beseler had showed up, he may have gotten more votes than just his staff.

Nobody wants to attack your family, but we do want you to be honest. You have some good ideas but you are still part of the old school Clay County Good Ole Boys.It's time for a change and I think you are going to be more of the same old same old when all is said and done

I know that at least two of us are working on getting web sites up and running. But until that happens what you see and hear is what you get.

I hear what you are saying but take a look at the numbers:

Taylor - $2500 in kind for web site and 'on-line marketing'.

Beseler - about $4300 for 'consulting' etc.

Mike Heemer

 PROLEO--

   I have no idea about where you are coming from.  First of all I have more people than I can count tell me that I won't win because I am too honest.  My integrity cannot be challenged.  Secondly, let me say this as plainly as I can---I wasn't born in Clay County and I didn't graduate from Clay High.  I didn't go to school with Sheriff Beseler nor Sheriff Lancaster.  No family member of mine has ever held an office in Clay County.  To call me a part of the "good ole boy" sytem really shows your lack of knowledge about me.  It's little inuendoes and false perceptions like you throw out there that puts spin on truth.  Why don't you talk about my participation and volunteer work in this county for the past thirty years ?  Why don't you talk about the good things I have done ?  Perhaps you've never seen me in my church, nor have you seen me wearing my Fez as a Shriner collecting monies for childrens hospitals. Did you know that I am the President of the Clay County Shrine Club ? Perhaps you weren't there when I served as a volunteer member on the Quigley House Board with Marge Hutton,  Lt. Henry Young, and Reserve Deputies Bennie and Peggy Martin (CCSO) long before they had their first home.  Perhaps you weren't there when I worked for nearly ten years as a volunteer cook and bottle washer during the Quigley House chili cookoffs, nor maybe you didn't see me working as a volunteer at the Cattlemens booth making and selling BBQ sandwiches. I don't recall seeing you when, over several years we stayed up all night cooking chicken so the Orange Park Methodist Church could have a successful fund raiser. You may not have been there when I served as the President and later Treasurer of my Civic Association or during Red Cross "Jail & Bail" when I raised plenty of money for that great cause, and maybe you missed the two times I acted as a mentor for two troubled youths who are now JSO patrol officers. Did I miss seeing you when I served two years as the Treasurer of the Republican Mens Club of O.P. or the night we formed the Middleburg Area Republican Club and I became a Charter member ?  I don't recall seeing you as a volunteer committee member to select valid Clay County heroes and present them with awards for their contributions.  As I recall I didn't see you during the heat of combat when I left my boat to to go to the immediate aid of wounded American soldiers and Vietnamese Marines.  I looked around, and you weren't there when they gave me an award for that action. I guess I was a "good ole Boy" in a way.  I had and still have a desire to make this a great county, to provide guidance to our youth and to serve my community.  But please--don't link me to a "system".  Gary Newman is his own person, not linked at the hip to anyone. I haven't taken a single penny from big business, PACs, Unions, Gambling or any other source that could be perceived I was a puppet to. How many people could I spin about your relationships with people who live in this community or that you are linked to?  If you really want to look at who has "Good ole Boys" in their campaign you need to look elsewhere. I have an unblemished record of serving my country and community and I am proud of that. Make no mistake-- I love my country, my flag and my family.  Those are who I owe my first allegiance to--and not anyone else.           

You take this to personal. If you are involved in all these things tell the voters,I know some of the things you do, and they are very good indeed. Tell them the rest of your history. You worked at the SO back in  the "OLEDAYS" and still have those ties. Where were you the last election? Were you writing down the Tally of votes? Do not act like a new comer to this stuff ,you have been around here a long time. The bloggers deserve to know your history.