THE BUBBLE, THE BELTWAY, THE BUST

Fred,

Florida is traditionally a boom/bust state.

Traditionally, Adam Smith's "invisible hand" has caused the markets to adjust accordingly.  When there is too much speculation, the market crashes which stops the speculation.

At least for a short period of time.

The current bust will look different than anything we have seen in our lifetimes, unless you happen to be old enough to remember the roaring 20s.  I'm not that old.

The current burst of the real estate market is just the tip of the iceberg, and is chump change compared to the other bubbles that are bursting or that will burst in the near future. 

The "Greenback" bubble has been bursting for the past five years.  As the dollar continues going south relative to other currencies, $12 trillion in foreign-owned assets in America will begin to leave.  As that $12 trillion leaves the US economy, that same money will "chase" other "borderless" commodities, such as oil, steel, precious metals, etc.  This will contribute to inflation.  Some of this $12 trillion is invested in American stock markets. When the money leaves, stock values will head south.

The Federal deficit bubble is about to burst as America's baby-boomers enter the Social Security system with relatively little liquid assets.  They have their homes, which are declining in value, and they have their fixed retirements, which are heavily invested in the stock markets.  The $8 trillion deficit is funded by part of the $12 trillion in foreign-owned assets.  America will not leave its retirees behind.  The US government will print money to pay for the huge and growing Social Security liability.  Printing money causes more inflation.  Inflation wipes out the value of fixed retirements. Inflation is the cruelest tax of all.

The interest rate bubble will burst, likely by the August meeting of the Federal Open Market Committee, which sets interest rates.  America has enjoyed an unprecented level of low interest rates that it won't see again for another generation.  Interest rates will be forced upwards to recapture the dollars that are overseas--dollars that we send to China every time we buy a piece of junk that is made by China.

The market will adjust.  Three DRIs will be delayed.  Not because of political decisions at the County level, but because of investor confidence and the lack of money at suitable interest rates.  Three DRIs will move forward when there is enough interest in the market to buy the housing products that are being proposed.

That day will happen.  Like it or not, world population is hitting an exponential point on the growth curve.  America can't control its borders.  World population growth is spilling into America illegally.  Florida is getting its share of that growth.  

Population growth is putting an enormous strain on public infrastructrue. 

Let's talk about the beltway and other public infrastructure. . .

Building public infrastructure is not like building a single family dwelling or even like building a subdivision with a bunch of single family dwellings.  Public infrastructure affects all people, whether they are long-time residents or newly arrived boat-people.  Public infrastructure is orders of magnitude more expensive than homes or subdivisions.  Public infrastructure has much longer useful service life than homes or subdivisions.  Public infrastructure takes much longer to plan and construct than homes or subdivisions.

If a single family home or a subdivision fails, who cares?  The people who own or who are building the home or subdivision.  If public infrastructure fails, who cares?  Everybody.

Typically, government of some form owns public infrastructure.  Throughout America's history, our local and national governments have looked generations into the future to provide infrastructure that fuels the engines of economic growth.  Somewhere along the way we got lost.  Today our elected officials look at public infrastructure from election cycle to election cycle.

Because of that short-sighted approach to public infrastructure, it is little wonder that the American Society of Civil Engineers gives our national infrastructure a grade of D (A-to-F basis.  There is no "E" in this grading system).  Nationally we are headed to "third world" infrastructure status.   We are no better off in Clay County than we are in the nation as a whole.

In the current economic climate, the costs of public infrastructure will continue to skyrocket as the demand for public infrastructure continues to grow with population over the long-term.  The safe bet on public infrastructure is to build it while the costs of financing and construction are relatively low.  

Infrastructure decisions made by elected officials today echo for generations into the future.  It is time for elected officials to quit making decisions for our children and grandchildren based on the next election or on the current economic cycle.

Fred, you asked for an opinion.  You got it.

Mike Kelter, PE  (aka Mayor Mikey PE)

What we don't need in Clay County at this point in time are three more DRIs. We have too much inventory, the economy is in the pits and we cannot handle any more traffic at this time.

I see this as just another excuse to justify an outer beltway that doesn't need to be built in its currently planned configuration. I have no real issue with an outer beltway per se. But this one is a boondoggle of epic proportions that is going to hurt this county in more ways than we can even think of for a very long time.

From what I can see there are a number of current candidates for the BoCC that have never met a DRI, a developer or a builder they didn't like.

I never have believed the statement that Clay County is going to grow at a particular rate even if we don't have the new DRIs. This sounds like political clap trap to justify building more DRIs. The problem I see with DRIs is that we pack too many homes and people into too small of an area.

Rather than spreading the growth over a larger area that can handle small amounts of growth we overwhelm one area. We don't build the infrastructure first and the only plan we have for traffic is to use the existing roads that were built to handle the traffic load of 10 to 20 years ago.

Given the statements of some of the candidates that they don't believe in impact fees for roads or schools we better stand by to write some pretty big tax checks in a few years if that crew gets elected. I have yet to hear one of them give an alternative. The best I've heard is we need to have a broader base for income. OK, what is your plan?

Whether these DRIs actually get built now or later (due to the current economic outlook) we still don't have a plan for roads. Waiting until a permit is drawn to build a house is way too late to get that money. The roads need to be built by the developer before the first house is built.

As Mayor Mikey pointed out so well, long-term needs to be further down the road than this election. Unfortunately it just doesn't seem to be happening. The power brokers seem to be casting the same line and hooking the same species over and over again.

Mike Heemer

Mike since you are a candidate and a regular blogger, what is YOUR suggestion for the beltway (yea, nay or modified?) and some traffic relief for us commuters? you said it should not be built in it's current configuration, do you have any thoughts on a better configuratioin?

I may be dense, but wouldn't the beltway relieve some of the volume on surface roads? And with our "economy in the pitts" as you say--there would not be much new home construction (look at the surplus numbers from Fred).

Wouldn't the beltway handle additional traffic instead of  continuing to rely "on the exisiting roads that were built to handle the traffic load of 10-20 years ago" Please explain what the boondoggle will be and what we can do to change it.

Very interesting blog and comments. 

If the DRIs are postponed or never built, will the Outer Beltway still be considered?  If so, who will use the Outer Beltway?  We have lived in Clay County for 12 years, in the Orange Park/Fleming Island area and have worked in Jacksonville for most of those years, so I am not familiar with traffic patterns in the more southern area of Clay County. 

I am sorry to say I am not familiar with the demographics in the other areas including population, employment stats, age groups - all the statistics needed for decisionmaking purposes for infrastucture.  I do know that traffic is horrible in the northern part of the county as so many residents leave Clay every day using Blanding and SR 17 to commute into Jax for jobs that are unavailable here.  I always thought there should be another bridge built at the end of CR 220 to take the traffic to I-95 with a nice big roundabout and no traffic signals, but then that would disrupt too many waterfront homes and that wouldn't be acceptable.

I know I must sound like a dufus for asking these questions and do not mean to insult the citizens with my lack of knowledge of the South and Central sections of the county by asking where they work, play, shop, and what roads they use.  I have been in the Oakleaf Plantation / Argyle area and figure that Blanding is still used by those residents if they are going to Jax or at least to access 295.  Because I've always worked in Jacksonville, and the commute is so time consuming, I've just never had the chance to become familiar with the rest of Clay County, so please forgive my ignorance - I am trying to catch up.

Thanks,
Judy B

Our current road system is at capacity. CR 220 should have been four lanes to SR 21 ten years ago. Other than Brannen Field Rd, when has the county built a new road? I recall some expansion work on existing roads but nothing else.

It is my opinion that if developers want to build these mega communities they pay to party. The county should develop requirements for each developer based on size of community as to what they are required to furnish for infrastructure. I am sure something does exist now but it needs major revision as I believe they have given the farm away for way too many years.

As for the beltway I believe it needs to move further south about 15 miles then cross the St. Johns River and tie in to St. Johns County between 206 and 207 at I-95.

 I think some of us might be looking at the beltway in a different way then everyone here. I was under the impression that the main reason of the beltway was a by-pass from I-10 to I-95. Like a back door into Clay County and a way for new business to have easy access to us. Everybody talks about bringing new business to Clay but everyone knows business will not come if transportation is poor. We have Blanding and 17 and we know how great those roads are.
 The opposition to the beltway from what I see in the paper are two main points, 1. It cuts too close to some developments ,and 2. It will have a toll bridge. I don’t think you will ever be able to pick a path for a beltway that will please everyone, so you have to go with the most cost effective,  and the one that both counties agree on, don’t forget we are also working with St. Johns County on this one. The second one I am not happy about either, the toll but, I don’t think that is set in stone .
 So I guess I am for the beltway as without it the chances of getting major manufacturing companies into Clay are slim. If we don’t get major businesses we don’t get jobs, or taxes, but we will still grow and all the jobs will be in Duval.
 
 

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

I don't think you are 'dense' at all. These are good challenging questions that need to be asked and answered by all the candidates.

The beltway question is one loaded with controversy. I just find it mighty convenient that the route picked was so expensive that FDOT can't fund it. If we want that route we have to go for 'private' funding and make it a toll road. Much of the land is going to come at a cost of $77K an acre. That's the same price we were going to pay anywhere else for eminent domain. Plus they want to use some roads that the tax payer already built and then charge us to use it.

The boondoggle? Take a look at the names behind this route. Check out who owns a lot of that land. It doesn't take a forensic accountant to figure out who is going to make a killer profit. Then check out the relationships that exist locally. You can do a lot of that right here on this blog site. It also doesn't take a Sherlock Holmes to sort out the players and where the money to support those that support this idea is coming from.

Can a beltway relieve some congestion? I believe it could, but not on this route as a toll road. How do the cars get to the beltway? They get there on the same roads that are overcrowded now. Where are the commuters going that cross the river every day? Are they going to want to go west to get to a road that is going to take them to a spot where they have to turn back north to get to their office? Are they going to be willing to pay a price in extra gas and a toll to do that even if it saves a few minutes?

What of all the vehicles that use the Shands bridge on a daily basis? Not just commuters but people heading to the beaches etc on weekends. Are you going to be willing to pay a toll to drive west then south only to turn back north to get to where you want to go?

Speaking of tolls, have you seen a plan to collect them? If there is a viable one to collect tolls for every vehicle on that road, I haven't seen it. My understanding is that they have only figured out how to collect from the locals. Getting some of the truck traffic off I-295 could be a good thing but how do you collect a toll from them if there are no toll booths?

In addition to that, have you seen anything that explains who has control over the price of the toll? Is there a max? Is there a cap on how often and how much it can be raised? And last but not least who makes up for the loss of property tax on all the land they are going to use? They have already said that if they have to pay property tax it is a no-go.

Do you think the legislature can write a bill that will let this road be built without paying property tax that does not have at least three loop holes that will allow other projects to do the same? Check out the law that was written to help out one person with the retirement system and see how many people stepped though that open door. It's been discussed a lot right here on MCS.

I just don't think we need to give away the farm to get something that is not going to benefit us as much as is being advertised. If it sounds too good to be true, it is. That isn't fog you're looking through. It's smoke being blown in our faces.

I haven't studied all the proposed routes but I'm confident that there are better options than the toll road. They may not suit the investors that want the toll road or the person getting $77K an acre for land they couldn't sell for $50K an acre but that is not my concern.

My concern is how best to serve the citizens of Clay County. I think we can solve some our commute time by spending some money on timing the lights on 17 and perhaps making some configuration changes with the left turn crossovers that are not at lights. I think it would be money well spent and would have an immediate return on investment.

Mike Heemer

After living in this area for over 30 years, I’ve read at different times in the newspaper that County roads 218 and 220 along with State Highway 16 were going to be 4-laned. Still, after all these years that just hasn’t happened. If those projects were ever completed along with 4-laning and extending Brannanfield to intersect with them, that alone would relieve a lot of congestion. The growth in traffic justifies that this should be done. That in itself would not solve the long term traffic problems but it would provide more immediate relief instead of waiting for the powers that be to decide how to proceed with the beltway situation.

I would imagine that if a poll were taken, most citizens of Clay county could care less about the Beltway. They see it more as a relief to the city of Jacksonville instead of a life-line for the citizens of this county. It would be used by big trucks wanting to avoid the traffic hassles of the I-10, I-95 interchange so they could travel to points further down the line on I-95. Tourists would use it to get to Orlando and Daytona a little bit sooner. The tolls alone would make it restrictive for the everyday drivers wanting to get to work in the Jacksonville area. The relief to the surface roads in Northeast Clay county just wouldn’t happen.

The BCC has always been re-active instead of pro-active when it comes to the infrastructure of this county. CR-220 was last re-paved in the late 1980's because it was almost impassable. The area between College Drive and Knightboxx Road would actually throw your car off the road or into the opposing lane. A lady was seriously injured and the investigation cited that the road caused the accident. Due to the lawsuit that followed, CR-220 finally was repaired and repaved. Nothing has been done since. How many more people need to be injured or killed to get the kind of roads our citizens deserve?

I agree with Mike Kelter that we and/or our Legislators are not looking far enough into the future.  In looking to the future you must learn from the mistakes in the past, and not just here in the county, or the state, but across the world. The privatization of public roads under the premise that the Goverment can't afford it is happening everywhere, and more often then not the long term effects are negative to the tax payer.

I've included a link so people can go read about the pitfalls of not looking far enough ahead.  Mike Heemer pointed out a few but there are more in this link.  Like the language of the business deal in and of itself. More often then not the calculations on how much traffic will use these roads is high, when the traffic doesn't live up to the expectations tolls are raised.  One of the stories in the site that is provided below is of a toll road in Austrailia where due to the lack of traffic and profits people who bought transponders for their vehicles are now BEING CHARGED IF THEY DON'T USE THE TOLL.  There is another story where alternative roads to the tolls were impeded in one way or another to again, force people onto the toll roads. 

One other story is of a toll road in California.  The language of the business deal between goverment and the private sector did not allow for any expansion at all, no widening of lanes, no additional interchanges and the toll road became obsolete with growth.  In the end the goverment had to buy back the toll road at close to three times more then the original amount in order to facilitate changes so the taxpayer pays and pays and pays.

The State Legislature is out till the spring of 09.  I am waiting for a "special session" so they can exempt the future landlords from property taxes. Those who feel this exemption is just a little too big a gift to give should contact their State Legislators and tell them how you feel. 

Toll Road Failures

... but I had no idea how bad.  Marsha, thank you very much for that link regarding failed toll road projects. That one in Queensland was absolutely unbelievable.  Kafka couldn't have imagined anything that twisted.

As for the beltway, I have to agree with everything Mike wrote.  It is not a bad idea for,say, truckers doing long hauling. Avoiding the I-10 and 95 interchange would be desirable. But how many people in Orange Park are going to want to drive that far west to catch a beltway to go to St. Augustine and parts south? Not many. Plus the inherent unfairness of monopolizing a route over the river by removing a free bridge and exercising highwayman tactics to steal money.  No, it is just a terrible idea for casual commuters.

As for overpaying for that land, don't we have better uses for that kind of money?  I can think of plenty of school projects that should be done prior to greasing the palms of land speculators.  And don't even get me started about property tax exemptions.  Anyone who proposes that should be introduced to the Joys of Taxidermy. (Yes, I do mean they can go get stuffed.)

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Fred Catchpole Office 904-771-6852 Cell 904-708-5541

IS THE CYCLE OF BOOM OR BUST NECESSARY

Mayor Mike, interesting view, thank you.

I have always believed that P__s Poor Planning always results in an emergency and thus creates an imbalance or hardship when it could have been avoided at the beginning of the process.

Infrastructure is always expensive, however when it is planned it should use those areas that will be less expensive to develop, it will accomplish the same thing. 77,000 dollars per acre is more than the cost of eminent domain, it is a gift to people who were either lucky enough to have purchased the land without a crystal ball or it is a windfall for those who have a crystal influence.

The argument that it will generate industry is not necessarily true. As I stated before, while establishing the Navy’s Aicuz program we looked at what the real industry generators were. Ports, Airports, Free Trade zones are generators of industry for communities. Airports in general are considered strong growth inducers. Clay County has 2 Airports that could generate significant types of industry. Clay County is blessed with large areas of Lakes and beautiful scenery that could harvest more of the tourist industry. Of course since many of the lakes have had their source of water cut off, this problem must be rectified.

So I ask the citizens of Clay County what type of industry do you want to attract? Further, how much of the industry you want can be attracted due to a 46 mile toll road, that appears to be designed to service the future planned DRI’s and not the industry promised by the politicians.

I am sure industry that pollutes, creates odors, or is considered unsavory would not be appealing to the local voters.

I drive the roads of Clay County daily. The Brannon Field road has had back ups from time to time, once an accident delayed me getting home for 45 minutes. What I have observed recently is the increased number of deputies and state police there during the rush hours. When that force is present traffic flows smoothly, with the only delays an occasional light to stop at.

The next bubble I want to see bust is the Oil Trader Bubble. This problem was created by myopic and lobbyist influenced legislators, and is now allowed to continue to destroy our economy because politicians can not react in time to stop the outrageous conduct of these greedy people. They prefer to try to shove down our throats the supply and demand curves taught in economics 101.

I agree the 220 situation should have been pursued and 220 should have been 4 lanes from Blanding to 17. The person who said another Bridge across the river at 220 would have most likely resolved current problems as well as future problems is probably correct but those would not accommodate the new DRI’s/

218 being 4 lane from 301 to 16, and 16 being 4 lanes to I-95 would have served at least some the the DRI’s and Blanding being increased to 4 lanes to Keystone would have resolved the others. Those appear to be more cost effective in the long run and serve the entire county. Would they have cost the taxpayer as much as the current beltway plan? I don’t think they would since right of ways would have to be minimally expanded in some areas. After that it would then boil down to simple construction costs.

No Beltway but better roads to me is the most cost effective and meaningful solution to our problem, which has been created by politicians not people with the best interest of the taxpayer at heart.

The simple solutions and most cost effective solutions may already be moot since Tallahassee’s already been influenced possibly beyond the point of return to common sense. It may be that the tax exemption asked for by those speculator/developers lobbyists will also be the next thing the tax payers have to swallow.

The taxpayer would then have to go to Court to avoid the calories force fed by the legislature. There is legal precedence for it and in most cases the taxpayers prevailed. Responsible legislators would be more desirable.

If Clay county was a part of the Tampa or Orlando metropolitain area, would we be playing these games with the DOT or would we be getting the immediate assistance that those cities have gotten?  Is easy access for the tourist industry more important or are the needs of good, hard-working residents of the state of Florida?

Fred, I get it you don’t won’t the beltway. In all the plans in the newspaper when the beltway was being discussed I do not remember a plan being offered to four lane 301 to 16, and four lane 220 from 17 to Blanding. Did anyone step forward?  The 16- to 301 sounds good, but I was under the impression that 220 was going to be done in stages as money came available.
It was listed all your past experiences and why you would be good for this position, so I ask you:
1. What industry do you see as a fit for Clay county?  If elected I’m sure you would make sure it was a clean industry. I have lived in Clay County for almost 30 years and I can’t count how many surveys, stories, and letters to the editor all about NO JOBS IN CLAY have appeared in the newspapers.  Every morning and every night driving either 17, or Blanding, people need well paying jobs in Clay.
2. Will you fight to repeal the $84.00 garbage assessment that we have had for years now that we have mandatory pick-up. After all why do we have two fees?
3. Do you support an increase of the sales tax for the schools?
4. Since this is a part time job, and most Commissioners have other jobs or concerns during the day .Would you push hard to move all meetings to night time (6:30, 7:00 around those times) so that more Clay citizens could attend?  
5. I don’t think you have said if you are for or against impact fees. If you are for them What is your range for the fees? On a major development do you think the land for the school should be donated and NO CREDIT given for impact fees as I believe is now given?
6; On major developments will the developer be responsible for building any new water treatment plant needed, this should be part of the package just like roads they have to provide.
These questions I have already received answers  from Rutledge as he shows up at some meetings I attend and he will talk to anyone. I did not get what I considered all correct answers, but he did give me answers. I will try to get the same questions to the other two, but it seems from the format that is being held I’ll be lucky if I get one question asked. Maybe someone out there can get them to show up on the blogs like Fred.
My last question is do you really think that those three major DRIs will move forward even if they get all the approvals they need. Look at your own figures, what major builder is going to come in and build homes that no one can buy  in a county that has no job market so one must drive 30-40 miles one way to work every day, on two roads that can’t handle the traffic now.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

Before being built, both the Buckman Bridge and the Dames Point Bridge were harshly criticized for being bridges to nowhere.

There is a lot of good dialogue in the comments above - no way to comment on all of it.  I do hope candidates and incumbents alike are taking advantage of this living OPED page.

I look forward to the day that all the details are worked out to allow the outerbeltway to be built.  Mike H. made a comment, "The problem I see with DRIs is that we pack too many homes and people into too small of an area. Rather than spreading the growth over a larger area that can handle small amounts of growth we overwhelm one area."  Ironically, the State's biggest complaint with the Highlands DRI is that it is urban sprawl - spreading growth over larger areas.  The fact is growth creates either 1.) greater density or 2.) sprawl.  Pick your poison.  Mike K. mentions the real culprit - population growth.  Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but that ain't gonna change anytime soon.  Economic cycles are just that - cycles.  You know - what goes up, must come down.  So far, fingers crossed, what has come down, has always gone back up - even higher.  God knows I'm banking my retirement on that principle continuing.

Growth has turned into the 4-letter word of our times, at least in Clay County & Florida.  I assure you, businesses - ANY kind of business - love growth.  Growth = more customers = more sales = more jobs = more tax revenues, etc.  Early in my business career I heard a phrase that has stuck with me ever since. "Profit is not a dirty word."  If a business does not make a profit, it goes broke.  People lose jobs.

What difference does it make what the names are that are going to be earning a profit?  When did that become wrong?  The inference is that something immoral or even illegal took place regarding the route of the outerbeltway.  Pretty heady criticism - especially with no facts. 

Being a leader requires that you look out ahead of the current mess we're in, and imagine the future.  Yes, we should learn from our past mistakes, but we should not be afraid to take big steps to prepare for, and even guide towards, a brighter economic picture.  It is sure to be here soon enough.

Baxley, very well said. It seems that when someone is going to profit there must be something wrong.

Where ever  the beltway goes someone is going to make money, and the beltway is going to cost a boatload of money to complete. I still don’t like that the bridge may be a toll bridge, but nowhere have I seen that the whole road was to be a toll road except on these blogs. Is there any newspaper article that back this up, or was it just a typing error?
 

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

I don't know if this story makes clear the answer to your question about the whole road being a toll road but it does say toll road and not toll bridge. 

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=108278

Did the state imply that DRIs were a good thing because it isn't sprawl or did they mean there are so many DRIs popping up so close together that it constitutes sprawl? Big difference. I'd put my money on the latter.

Growth is NOT a 4 letter word. Neither literally nor figuratively. Uncontrolled growth is worse than that. An honest look around here will show you the results of years of that.

I too hope the market comes back. I own a home here too. I know I’ll never make the money on this one that I did on the one we sold in California in 2005 but I’d like to at least break even. I sure as heck can’t do that now.

Profits are a given. How much is not. Should I personally have a say in how much money someone makes in their business due to hard work? No! Should I as an elected Official have a say in how much profit an individual makes when they are using tax payer money, property and assets to fund the enterprise? Absolutely.

Bax, and anyone else that will listen, I don't have a 'don't build it at all' problem with a beltway. There are some good things that could come of it. The problem I have is the way I see the routes and the financing being manipulated to favor one group of individuals.

RGR is still a powerhouse of influence and continues to hold what I feel is undue sway in how this project has progressed. I don't think the 'locally preferred pink route' is really locally preferred.

We can do a non binding referendum to see how people feel about the time to allow selling beer on Sunday but we never did one on the routing of this huge project? At least not that I could find. Why is that I might ask? Were we afraid the result would not be what some people wanted it to be? If I’m wrong on whether this was ever put to a vote I hope someone will be kind enough to let me know.

As to whether the entire road is going to be a Toll Road, I let my fingers do some work on the net last night. Here’s a site that will tell you more than you ever knew about this project. Did you know there was a site dedicated just to the beltway? I didn’t until I stumbled across it in an obscure news article. This has more information about the beltway than you could ever think of asking. In addition it has some links and maps that are pretty impressive.

www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com

Did you know?

The toll is 10 cents per mile with a minimum of 50 cents? It goes to 14 cents per mile in 2015.

The initial toll on the bridge portion is set at $2? I could not determine if that was for each way or total.

That they assume (love that word) a 25% increase in tolls every 10 years?

Facility assumed (again with assume) to be all electronic toll collection (no cash).

How are we going to do this? How do we collect from a vehicle that does not have a transponder? Shoot we can’t even figure out how to vote electronically.

That as of 12/26/08, 23 of 39 firms involved with this project were listed as having a conflict of interest?

After you get done digesting this fine meal, go to www.jacksonville.com and search their site for ‘outer beltway’. There are some very interesting stories with some very recognizable names.

Bax;

This certainly wouldn’t be a bridge to nowhere. We already have a bridge there and it’s free. Why should I want to tear it down, build a new one and pay a toll everytime I drive across it? If that makes sense to you how about letting me put a toll gate in front of your driveway!

I'll only charge you 50 cents every time you go in or out and if you don't go in and out often enough I'll raise that rate till I'm making the profit that I feel I deserve. From the sounds of things I could raise it to $5 each time and you wouldn't mind. I mean, who are you to tell me how much profit I can make? 

Mike Heemer

After searching on jacksonville.com for outer beltway information, don't forget to search for it right here on Myclaysun where you can read some citizen comments and find several other links.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2008/04/28/daily13.html

I ran across this survey.  I don't know who it was intended for.  It seems to be an odd and vague way of asking the question.

http://www.claychamber.org/modules.php?name=Surveys&pollID=30

This survey too leaves something to be desired in the wording.

http://www.jacksonville.com/community/communitypollarchive/1023.shtml

I've heard that tag line of displacement about profits so many times.  If profits at any cost, at any margin is acceptable then I guess we should all stop complaining about the price of gas.  So what if they're the richest people in the world, why can't they get richer still.  With that mindset maybe gas will go up to $15 a gallon, after all, what's wrong with profit?

Another is to infer because reality says growth has been ill planned over the last 20yrs and a significant part of the population has taken notice, don't like it and want it to stop that we're all against growth. 

It's a childish extreme, all or nothing. Jjust because I don't care for geraniums doesn't mean I hate flowers.  Do you hand over the entire bag of M&M's because the child isn't satisfied with what he has in his hand and mouth? 

Its when the profits of a few are made to the detriment of hundreds of thousands of others....the taxpayer, in what they have to pay and the results they have to live with on a daily basis. 

77K an acre for land is ridiculous, an individual owner won't get that for an acre of land anywhere in the county unless it's waterfront.  How many giveaways are the taxpayer supposed to finance?  

The need for the beltway was conceived and created over a long period of time.  There are no guarantees nor even any hopeful specific industry anyone is courting.  It's just another tag line to make people go along with it......because as we see over and over again that those who want accountability and responsiblity and fair representation from our elected officials are against growth, against profits. So, you're falsely presented time and time again with the idea that if you question it, you're against it, and since you're not really against growth and profit you should just go along with things as they are. 

I heard an interesting bit of history the other day, where the word Lobbyist got it's origin.  It was in our nations capital.  President Grant used to take nightly sojourns to the Willard Hotel where he would sit in the lobby, have a cigar and a scotch I believe. Once his pattern of behavior became known people would go there just to see him and talk to him about what they wanted.  The President grew to refer to these people as Lobbyists......it's a far cry from what it started out to be. 

Clay County needs to take care of what it already has before we take on anything more, and we need to start doing away with what is unecessary.  I wonder how much the county spends a year on the lifetime benefits for those who are no longer in public service?  I'm not talking about employees who invest years for service, at the moment I am talking Commissioners.  Where is the reasoning for a taxpayer living in a mobile home that's worth 120K paying taxes for lifetime benefits of former public servants living in million dollar homes on the water when we're cutting education, public services, etc.

Our active duty men and women have to work for 20yrs and risk their lives to get lifetime benefits and even those are being reduced on a regular basis.  Where is the reasoning that a suit who spent four years in a cushy chair safe from harm gets them with a quarter of the time invested and no risk to life? 

I wonder how much we spend on gas for Officials to drive a county vehicle back and forth to work everyday?  How many of you out there are provided a vehicle with which to go back and forth to work?  In my mind the only people that have a valid purpose in driving vehicles back and forth to work are the CCSO. 

I'm waiting for them to start considering switching to more gas efficient vehicles creating another big bill for the taxpayer.  The value of gas guzzlers is declining just like home values so on a trade in they're not worth much. How about we just park them and clamp down on wasteful driving.   Make people "check out" a vehicle on an as needed basis and log their mileage, where they're going and why.  Maybe then the BCC won't have to dip into reserves to pay the gas bill. 

Fred Catchpole Office 904-771-6852 Cell 904-708-5541

ANSWERS ANSWERS ANSWERS

FTDOAAWM

Thank you for asking questions about where I stand on issues.

1. You asked what type of industry would I like to see in Clay County. This question will be answered as if it was agreeable to most of the tax payers. I will break it down to areas of the County.

Green Cove has abundant capabilities with the large waterfront area. I would like to see if a Free Trade zone were feasible in the space that it there. Items that I feel would be good industry there is solar panel construction and distribution using the river to ship up to Jacksonville’s port for export or the rail spurs to ship domestically. Aircraft parts manufacturing would also be good for the Reynolds area. Medical supplies would also be Industry I would support for Green Cove and for Keystone Heights. As you may have seen in other discussions Airports are growth inducers, both Green Cove and Keystone Heights have airports with some improvements could induce good paying industry. Keystone I would also support alternative energy industry, conversion of green to useful fuels.  I would also like to see the lakes returned and tourism created using the lakes.

I would like to see a teaching hospital located near Penny Farms.

Camp Blanding, the Navy erred when it closed Cecil Field ,a political blunder not operational decision. Since that closing the Navy has been unable to find a suitable site to build a replacement. My campaign treasurer, Jim Lichtenwalter (L13) has sent letters to local representatives suggesting that Camp Blanding due to its large number of acreage and buffer zones would be suitable. Perhaps the citizens of Clay County would like the return of those 10,000 jobs that were lost. Let me know your thoughts on that issue, noise would not be much more of a factor than the big guns and potential accident zones would most likely be confined to the confines of the base. My wife’s father was one of hundreds of thousands trained there and sent to fight in World War II. Clay County citizens let me have your thoughts on this industry.

2. How do I stand on garbage. I have said before I would have to review what kind of agreements we are currently blessed with, before I could finally decide, but I did not like what happened and if possible without costing the tax payer even more money I would seek to get rid of it.

3. Before I would support an increase in any sales tax for schools I would want to know how the revenues would be spent and if there truly is a short fall in the budget. It has always been my belief that increasing the taxes is always what politicians do when they get elected. I do not like paying taxes either so I would have to be shown that it is the last resort necessary to provide our children and grand children the educations that would vie for leadership in the world as you know lots of other countries lead us in quality of education.

4. I would want all board meetings to be held so that the public can have more involvement. This means evenings and weekends. I would be willing to have that put on the ballot if others would not agree with me. This is a democracy the people need a better say and be able to participate in issues affecting their future.

5. Impact fees were established to offset the damage that developers do to our infrastructure. They pass this cost on to the consumer and are not really impacted by it. I would not be in favor of eliminating it. I would be in favor of the situation where an individual land owner who has been paying his taxes on the land for years decides to build a home, of waiving or reducing it.

6. The handling of waste products for any large development should be required for all large developments and DRI’s. It is a cost that should not be born by the taxpayer. Granted the public utilities should take over any project after the project is complete and should be involved in the approval process from the beginning to insure the safety of the public.

I hope these positions are clear and not considered weasel worded. I would be glad to meet with you any time for any other questions you have or for follow up on these.

Thank you again for asking

Fred Catchpole

Well Fred, you were going to get my vote anyway, but you just nailed it when you answered FTD's question about industry in Clay County and you would recommend solar panel construction and distribution in GCS!  It's about time someone in this state thought about using our greatest natural resource - after all we are the SUNSHINE state! 

I have two grandson's in NY and have encouraged them both (since they chose not to attend college), to become involved with sustainable energy - resources (solar, wind) manufacturing, installation, and to learn as much of the technology as is possible, and also to continue learning.  Speaking of that, Clay County sure could use some kind of trade school, apprentice programs, etc.  Is there any such thing around here?

Keep the good thoughts coming.

Judy B.

Fred, thank you for your quick response, just a little follow up.
1. Those who know me can safely say I am no tree hugger and I am not a big fan of solar power only because of high cost. Now if you were to pull in a wind power company, that I would support, probably even try to get a job in that plant.
2. I wasn’t talking about the mandatory garbage pick-up, I think we are probably stuck with that. My question was the $84.00 assessment we pay yearly for the convenience centers.  If we have mandatory pick-up that includes house trash, yard trash, appliances etc. why do we need the convenience centers, and the $84.00 yearly fee? As I see it we are paying two garbage fees, or one garbage fee and one slush fee.
3. An airfield at Camp Blanding sounds good, but were you not in the area when the Navy was talking about maybe re-opening Cecil? I do believe there were a lot of Clay residents that were against it. Me bring it on, but I believe you will get the same response as they gave Cecil.
I don’t think you tried to weasel word anything just misunderstood my one question, and that could have been my fault, after all there are others that have trouble understanding what I write.
Thanks for your time.
 

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their part.

Fred Catchpole Office 904-771-6852 Cell 904-708-5541

FTDOAAWM

Let me remind you once again I am not a politician, I am not a member of any machine so my answers to questions will not always please everyone.  In keeping with trying to put some clarity to the questions posed prior I will add to my statements noted above.

1.  Tree hugger or not, a citizen in todays economy has to view various options to survive and have lower costs of living.  The question that I answered was what type of industry I would like to see in Clay County.  I gave what I considered were reasonable areas that should be explored for industry.  I believe the manufacturing of solar technology would be good for Clay County, after all the sun shines here over 300 days a year.

I understand the manufacturing costs of various types of alternate sources that are available and what environments they must work in to be effective.  Solar must have its source from the Sun and windmills must have wind.  Construction costs of windmills was recently featured by National Geographic Television for Installation in Brazil.  The Costs of Installing these large Fans along the Coast of Brazil and the Cost of those materials per kilowatt hour were double that of solar power.  It must be looked at in a cost per kilo watt hour rather than the perceived cost of solar panels and wind mills.

Shifting focus now to which might be better used in Clay County.

In my various career fields I have had to look at all the variables that go into planning an airport. Wind patterns, speed and direction must be factored in the planning to make sure aircraft most of the time land into the wind.  I have been schooled in meterology and have taught meterology and weather courses at the college level which help when planning such a program. 

In comparing the two systems which is best for operation in Clay County.  A simple man looks at it this way. Florida has lots of sun, and the coast lines have a lot of wind during the day.  Unfortunately Clay County is not located on the Coast, although it may become closer with more global warming.  Since Clay County lacks sufficient wind it must be less effective than solar panels.  Therefore, it is just my humble opinion that it solar energy is therefore superior for Clay County.  I have followed the solar technology for some time and I have identified systems that are reasonable and qualify for government grants as well as other financial incentives making it more reasonable. Perhaps if it were manufactured in Clay County it would even be more reasonable.

Wind is effective also on the Mountain sides due to various effects of night time cooling on wind flow. we lack moutains in Florida.  Therefore I can only deduce that the most favorable conditions for wind driven power would be the hot air in the legislature and BCC.  Since the BCC only meets just a couple of times a month I must conclude it is less efficient than solar.  The restrictions on where windmills are most effective coastline and mountains, creates a smaller market to sell the product. On the other hand solar can be packaged in various sizes from just servicing your pool, your water heater, your outside lighting etc making it a broader market for the manufacturer to sell the product. 

More seriously I do not believe in double taxation.  However, without knowing why the tax was imposed and truly where those moneys are being spent, I can only take the position that I will look into it, and if it is not justified I will seek to repeal it.

With Respect to Camp Blanding versus Cecil Field.  The Mayor of Jacksonville did a flip  flop on it.  Why the reason is simple, after Cecil closed the protected land from the AICUZ program was seriously violated with development like Oak Leaf Plantation as well as other smaller subdivsions.  Hysteria was also created by those people who occupy former base housing.  They believed they were threatened with certain eviction if the Base was reacquired by the Navy, plus the City had liability to the new tenants that they brought in with tax and other economic incentives.

The DRI's proposed for Clay County if thought through might be helped by the 10,000 jobs that would be added to Clay County by a return by the Navy to Camp Blanding, making it truly a joint use military facility.

Should this suggestion ever materialize, I would still favor Better Roads than the Beltway because improving what we got also serves the DRI's and also would stimulate desired industry.

Thanks again for the gotcha

 Fred Catchpole

I look forward to your questions.  My email is kw4t@arrl.net

JD "Dan" Weisenburger Candidate for BCC 5

Hi Dan - Welcome to the MCS blog (aren't we a fun group?)

I couldn't find any information on the SOE about you, so please tell us about yourself:

(1) Why you are campaigning for Commissioner in D5 and what are your qualifications?

(2) How do you stand on issues such as reducing commissioners' salaries, impact fees and other pertinent items currently being discussed.

(3) What differentiates you from the other candidates and why should we vote for you?

Thanks,
Judy B. (a District 5 voter)

Dan, whatcha doin ridin my husbands blog.... I'm joking for those who cannot interpret the smiley face.

Even though I am obviously going to support my Husband in November I too am interested in who you are and what you stand for because I have a choice to make in the primary.

Let me second the welcome to the blogs, whether incumbent or candidate I applaud either for coming here for a little give and take with the people you are running to represent. 

...although Marsha was kidding about the blog thread, it would be really great if when you respond to tell us about yourself, you would start a NEW blog.  When the MCS blog site is quite active as it is today, it's hard to remember which blog thread you need to locate. Just now when I was seaching for your original comment and looking for a reply to mine, I did remember which blog you came in on and had to go to page 2 to find it.  My earlier comment had been "bumped" down in the list on the right which shows all the recent comments made on the blog so I couldn't use that shortcut.

I am thinking that since you're new to this blog that you might be unfamiliar with the jargon, so please don't be insulted and pardon me if I'm incorrect. The "thread" is all of the comments made in reply to an initial "blog", which is what you write to introduce yourself to the masses.  That way your new blog would be easy to locate as opposed to a comment way down in another thread. 

And Dan, if you have any questions, about the blog 'operation' - just toss your questions out here.  There are many bloggers here who would be happy to help - this has been an ongoing learning process for all of us.

Thanks
Judy B.

 Actually Marcia I stumbled onto the blog when I was on my way to looking up something else  

Judy I have started to write my own blog but I have not finished it yet so it is not ready for publication.   I type slow, very slow.

Ia agree, I could not remember how I got here in the first place

Dan

JD "Dan" Weisenburger Candidate for BCC 5