Wedding Bell Blues

Solo;

Yes we have covered this a time or two. Unfortunately I don't think this is going to be the end of the story. Just like here they are trying to get a California Constitutional Amendment passed in order to overturn this ruling.

That amendment is very similar to the one in Florida. If the amendment does get on the ballot and is passed it will be a Catch 22 situation for those couples that got married in the interim.

It is (or will be shortly) legal to issue a marriage license to a gay couple and for the ceremony to take place. Great you say. And so do I. Here is the rub. If the amendment passes any of those couples that got married in the interim would not be able get a divorce because the state would no longer have a procedure for them.

Kind of like couples that got married in Mass can't get divorced somewhere else because that state doesn't recognize their marriage. They have to move back to Mass and establish residency again.

Why the US Supreme Court can't just take care of this and be done with it I don't know. I also don't know why the church can't just leave this alone.

But then, this isn't the only thing in life that I don't understand.

Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov.

Mike,

Welcome to the wide wonderful world of, "I just don't understand."  We have a wide, deep, broad membership.  I wish I could answer your query on one state recognising another marriage.  I think it might boil down to the 14th Amendment, at least.  It's times like this that I wish I were a bit more up on Constitutional law.

The US Sp. Ct. can't get involved until  a law suit is filed.  It has to go up the chain of law command & run the course.  Then they have to determine if the complaining party has, "Standing."  Much like the pledge or the faith based initiatives cases. Personally, I don't think they are looking forward to the law suits that are most assuredly going to be filed.

The church?  They have the most to loose, that's why.  Look back to the 15th & 16th century for the answer.  Religion was being challenged like never before.  The determining factor at that time was reproducable, predictable scientific procedures that said the church, by way of the bible, was wrong.  If they were wrong on one thing, the rest of what they had to say, by way of dogma, had to come into question & be examined.  It was & was found to be wrong. 

In this case, it's not science.  It's the law & the nature of societal demands.  That is, that people should not be discriminated against.  They should have equal access, equal justice & equal protecion under the law.  The definition of "marriage" will, undoubtedly come under question.  But then the questions must be asked.  Who decides?  On what basis?  On what authority?  When the nits hit the grits, & this is my personal opinion, I think it will be found that the arguements of the religious factor will be found groundless.  Much like their arguements on abortion, homosexuality & the "Christian Nation," I think that if it comes to judicial procedures, they will be found to be fanciful at the least, ridiculous at worst.  But once again, that's my opinion.

The political side is the least problematic.  A few politicians will have to do the Texas side step, worry @ their constituents & move along, but that's @ it.  Societal mores are another thing.  We, as a society, will have to adapt to the the words of the Declaration that, "All men are created equal."  That also goes for women and people who decide to change their gender.  We had to do it with native born people.  We had to do it with the Blacks we kidnapped to be bought & sold into slavery & we did it with one  half of our population, women.  We can do it again.  Gays are just another segment of our society.  No better, no worse. 

Regardless, I think that we will be witnessing a rather dramatic change in our society.  It's just to bad that we are so behind the rest of humanity in this regard.  JATFUR.

RichK

This hasn't been OK for over 7 thousand years, why are we tyring to make it OK now?  What's next?  Next thing you know, you'll have some freak in SF trying to marry his goat!!!  The sad thing is, it would probably pass, wouldn't be constitutional to not let someone marry their goat.......bbbbaaaaahhh  baaaahhhhhhh!!!

Steven P Munsey A+, MCP, IASO Orange Park | Green Cove Springs munsey13@comcast.net

After being in and out of California more times than I care to count, I can honestly say that there is nothing that surprises me when it comes to that state. Everyone there has their own agenda and could probably care less about a person being gay, incestuous, polygamous, or even bestial. If you aren’t fluent in Espanola, you can hardly conduct business in southern California. If you are a smoker, you are considered a heathen yet you have gasp for air due to the smog. The houses cost a fortune to build but you spend more time in traffic than you do at home trying to enjoy your investment. California tries to lead the way preaching the value of new fuel sources but they could power Los Angeles for a year just by burning the litter along the highway gathered between Barstow and San Bernadino. Yeah, I guess you could say that I’m very impressed with anything affiliated with the California way of thinking.

Hey Walt. Don't hold things back, tell us what you really think about SOCAL. 

I spent 22 years in the SD area. It was a good investment in our future and I had a great time while I was there. I made good money. Sold our house for 3 times what we paid for it 10 years earlier.

They sure do have a different perspective on life. I did like their live and let live attitude. For all that people say about them they sure seem to have a lower crime rate than we do here in the Bible Belt.

I don't know what it is about this place. You can hardly fling a rock without hitting some kind of a Baptist or Church of Christ or any one of a dozen other religions yet people seem to spend more time trying to figure out how to kill each other than they do trying to earn a paycheck. 

It just seems like there isn't a day goes by that we don't have at least 1 murder or some church big wig being picked up for molestation.

Yet there seems to be plenty of time to run around preaching against gay marriage and trying to change the constitution to meet their desires. I guess they'd rather have a fiasco like the McGreevy mess in NJ than to let gays get married to each other.

Heck we even have to spend time and money to put a resolution on the ballot to see if we can change the sale of beer to noon instead of 2 o'clock on Sunday.

Speaking of people feeling like heathens. Can you imagine what the 29K Democrats that are outnumbered by over 2 to 1 by Republicans feel like? Or worse yet the 20K Others that are outnumbered by 3 to 1 Republicans.

There isn't 1 Democrat or Other running for office. Why is that Walt? They are all Republicans except one poor old NPA. I just can't believe that everyone that could do the job is a Republican.

Hello! The light just came on. I'll bet that some of them Republicans are closet Democrats or Independents.

Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov.

I am a little confused. Didn't the folks in Cali. vote not to have same sex marriage (making it law)??

If I am correct did 4 judges in Cali just overturn the votes (voice) of the people?

Am I incorrect on this, but isn't the roll of judges is to inturpet law, not write, or enact it? I think I am missing something.

TRUTHHURTS

Mike, I'm sure you've seen all the big windmills that California erected down near Palm Springs to generate electricity and help alliviate the dependance on fuel oil.  Well, it seems that the big rotor blades are whacking some of the little birdies out of the air so they made them shut some of them down to relocate.  I guess the little birds are more important than having the population suffer brown outs again this year due to lack of power.  We can at least rest assured that contented cows come from California.

Walt; 

I heard that about the wind farm. Hey I never said some of them weren't a little whacky but overall I liked them. It was certainly never boring.

TH;

You are correct. They passed a law that said no same sex marriages. The Judges deemed that law unconstitutional in accordance with the current California constitution.

As you said, they are there to interpret the law. They did not write nor enact a law. They simply said that the California Constitution will not allow the 'no same sex marriage law' to stand.

Now the Church is trying to get a Constitutional Amendment on the ballot that says marriage is between one man and one woman. This would negate their ruling. There would be no need for a law or a decision. It would be in the constitution.

This is the same thing that is going on here. Though we have a number of laws about marriage, the Florida Constitution does not reflect that. The Church knows that eventually a case will make it to the Florida Supreme Court that will force them to rule all these laws are unconstitutional.

That is the reason for amendment #2 on the general election ballot. See the SOE site constitutional amendments link for the full version. It says not only no marriage but nothing that even resembles marriage will be allowed if it passes. 

My opinion is that this is going to cause major collateral damage if it gets passed.

Mike Heemer http://24.23.126.8/ Petition for choice (5 or 7) in Nov.

Mike

Thanks for the info and clarification.

TRUTHHURTS

It seems there are much bigger fish to fry than this.  Really, who cares?  A bunch of repressed people who think it is their responsibility to tell everyone else how to live?  If 2 gay people fall in love and want to have a legally recognized relationship - I say, more power to them.  I'm coming up on 28 years in a couple of weeks, and I highly recommend it.  Gay or straight, what difference does it make.  "Inalienable rights . . . pursuit of happiness."

I acknowledge it is stretching our social norms, but isn't that what we call 'evolution'.  I think the comparison to the 50's & 60's is a good one.  There was a time it was illegal for racially mixed couples to marry.  Now, that seems like a truly stupid and narrow-minded idea.  Saying 2 gay people shouldn't be allowed to legally marry falls into that same category to me.

PS - I agree Walt, CA is a whacky place.  Florida is #2 behind CA in a lot bad ideas.  There really is such thing as too much regulation trying to protect people.  But that's for another blog.

I’m 57yrs. old, retired military, happily married to my first wife for 36 years. You would think I’d be a gay basher in the 1st degree. Well, I’m not. I’m not tickled with the idea and I can’t for the life of me understand that particular lifestyle but I don’t feel that it’s necessarily worth getting tied up in a knot about. It’s hard for me to understand how two grown men can get their jollies by puckering up and mashing their mouths together. Homosexuality has been around since the time of Abraham so I guess you can say there is nothing new under the sun. If mankind hasn’t been able to put a stop to it in the last 2000 years, I don’t think we will put an end to it now. Enacting laws to make their unions legal is probably inevitable. Since being gay isn’t such a taboo anymore and the politicians recognize that the gays have a large voting block, being this is an election year, guess which way the pendulum is going to swing.

Just as last year, we're coming up wwith some good comments.  I'm hoping that we'll have more.  Funny how one issue can cover such number of other issues.   I'll get to that.

"That hasn't been OK for over 7,000 years."  Now here is just another great example of FACT BY GROUP PROCLAMATION.  It's also called mob mentality or mob consensus.  The ONLY reason to say that "it hasn't been OK," is because one group said so.  No proof mind you, just proclaming it.  You want use biblical injunctions?  Go ahead, but I think it only fair that I must warn you that you do so at your own peril.

More great examples of "Group proclamation," would be an earth centered universe, the legalisation of kidnapping, buying, selling & keeping in slavery other human beings, denying basic civil rights to women & blacks in this country & making it a law against people of different races to marry. Yeah.  A whole lot of wisdom & thinking must have gone into those group proclamations.  I hope the brainiacs who came up with those took a nap afterwards.  They must have been tired from all the mental gymnastics.

I fugured it wouldn't be long before the cry of "Judicial activism," would rear its head.  It's either good  for a laugh or hurling chunks, but not much else.  Here's the scenario.  Regardless of subject, if the decision doesn't go the way the political right/religious right wants, JUDICIAL ACTIVISM is the automatic, instantanious answer for everything.  An added benefit:  if one or more of the judges are conservative Republicans, the added claim of, "Well, he's not a TRUE conservative, is spewed out in  mental lock step.  Result?  A spike in laughter, hurling & the sale of hip waders.  Man, I just have to get me some.  Far better to light a candle than curse the darkness.

I mentioned one subject covering other issues.  Here's an example.  This is straight from the free news updates I get from Yes 2 Marriage, a group backed by Florida Family Action of Orlando, Fl., dated 05.15.08.  A direct quote.  "Today, the Ca. Supreme Court, through a raw act of JUDICIAL ACTIVISM (caps are mine) IMPOSED same sex marriage upon the people of Ca. by striking down Proposition 22, a state marriage law similar to Florida's marriage  law."

Now here's what I mean.  #1.  In one sentance, the religious right automatically cried judicial activism.  BIG SHOCK there.  #2.  With one word, IMPOSED, they repeat the same BS & non factual word game they use with other subjects, most notably, abortion.  Nothing, I repeat, nothing is being imposed or forced, another favorite word with them, on anyone.  I can only assume that they think everyone is so stupid as to fall into mental lock step with them as some people do.  #3.  This ties in with my mention of Matt Staver & his Florida group in my blog above.  Last year or the year before, some of you might remember, the ACLU & probably the group, Americans United for the Separation of Church & State filed suit to bring down a cross on public property here in Starke.  One of the first cries was akin to, what right do these OUTSIDERS think they have  to come in here & get into OUR  business?  Well, conversely, the same thing can be said @ these Florida groups.  We're having our own problems with people hating people.  We don't need to get in the same problem in California.  One should always take care in what one says, lest it comes back to bite one on the arse.

Mike, so right, again.  There might be bigger fish to fry, unless people hating people isn't considered important.  I also agree with your assessment of Ca. & Fl. being filled with whack jobs & wacky ideas.  I've lived in both, so I know what your talking @.

Got to get busy, turn & burn.  Looking forward to more thoughts & ideas.  JATFUR.

RichK

PS. "Why can't we all just get along."  Heck of a great idea.  We should try asking the groups that don't want to.

RK

I beleive I would fall into the conservative republican side of the fence. But from time to time I do step out of that box.

I feel if two people love each other and want to be united, go for it. What two adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms is their own business.

I wonder if all the states passed laws allowing for gay marriage what effect "legally" it would have on the church. Would church's now "have" to marry same sex couples or face law suit ? Will the state now mandate the church to marry same sex couples citing that the church is violating constitutional rights? Is there a Pandoras Box being opened?  

TRUTHHURTS

TH,

I can't recite the law, but there is still, at least some separation of church & state.  The government can't compel a church, or any religious organisation to marry someone. It is not in their perview or power. The business of the state stops when they issue a license. 

Legally, I can see no no problem for any place of worship.  In fact, even if every state decided to make same sex marriage legal under equal protection or any other Constitutional guideline, there would be no repercussions at all since nothing is being forced on them.

RK

RK

Thanks, Thats what I was thinking but I was unsure if I was thinking straight about it (no pun intended) or not.

 TRUTHHURTS

If two people want to get married and they are the same sex- who cares, let them.  If you think society today gives a crap about this we have bigger issues.

How about we spend our time improving the schoolsystem and paying our terachers better money so we get better educated kids.  This may stop teen pregnancy and assist in keeping kids off drugs.  The internet has taken away any semblence of "naievety" about sexuality and it is too easy to access this information

Put more money into the hands of the police departments and let's lower crime rates and get people into programs to keep them out of jail.  Anyone heard of Joe Arpaio in Arizona- Beseler could learn a thing or too from this man.  He knows how tocurb crime and make our tax dollars work for us.

Healthcare in the riches nation in the world is the worst int he world, that is telling- let's worry about that.  The churches and state need to back off and let people do whatever they want to do if the love another human being.  Who says all people were emant to be joined as man and woman. 

 By the way this is from a married man trying to raise kids in what has become a really @#$%up place to do so.  When video games aer as violent as grand theft auto and porn redily availabel to kids on the internet and cable you have no chance but to educate them as best you can and hope for the best and keep a close eye.

Let gay people pay the marriage penalty and have head of household just like we do and join the rest of us in the 60% divorce rate in this country and make the divorce attorneys rich. 

Diver,

Thanks for the input.  I hate to tell you the facts, but what you speak, speaks worlds to the reality of life.  When you speak, just remember that in November we, as Floridians, will have the opportunity to tell the people haters in this state that it is time to stop hating people & treat them the way we would like to be treated.  I'm sure I read that somewhere.

I don't recall seeing your name before.  If you're new, welcome to the blogohood.  You'll meet all kinds of so-called, "normal," people, & then you'll come across people like me.  Just remember the words of Mr. Miyogi in the Karate Kid.  Not all is as it appears to be.  Once again, welcome.  Get your feet wet & keep an open mind.  JATFUR.

RichK