OFFICER SHOOTS MAN WITH KNIVES

MeMaw I saw this story as well. It made me very sad to see what happened. The only reason the police was called was because of his social worker requesting help. Otherwise he had harmed no one and now he is dead and "shot multiple times".

I hear the same statements made that was made in the South Hampton neighborhood after the young man in distress and the police arrived and after he was Tasered and died. Where individuals say I only called the police for help. I didn't mean for them to kill them.

I heard the same statements when a bi-polar man in St Johns County whos father called for help with his son who was psychotic. He's dead too.

This will be justified use of force.

The police are trained to shoot to kill and deal with criminals. How sad for a segment of our society who are the most vulnerable and the viticms of abuse. His only crime dealing with mental illness. I would never want that blood on my hands. I don't care if it was my job or not. 

personally of two individuals that were killed by police, both were good guys, both had famillies that loved them, both were not taking their meds, both had guns, both are dead.  What were the law enforcement to do, stand by and watch, while these other wise nice and decent guys hurt themselves or others.

 Don't we wish someone had tasered that kid that killed all those kids on college campus.

Kudos to JSO.  Never pull a gun unless you have to use it and when you use it, shoot to stop cold (this works best with 2 to the chest).  JSO was left with no other option and actually gave this guy more of a chance then he deserved.  In addition, saved tax payers mega bucks for the trial we would have had to pay for.

If you ever have to use a gun (lord forbid) never aim for arms or legs.  It could cost you your life.

 JATFUS

Steven P Munsey A+, MCP, IASO Orange Park | Green Cove Springs munsey13@comcast.net

smunsey;

Sometimes you drive me nuts with your posts but this one I agree with 100%.

I learned early in life that there is only one reason to point a gun at someone. That reason is to kill.

The problem with trying to play expert marksman and try to wound is that if you miss you could hit an innocent bystander and the guy you shot at is probably not there to try to wound you. He wants to kill you.

I have absolutely no problem with my tax dollars being spent to replace the bullets. Actually I'd send them an extra check if they asked me to.

If all they thought they needed was 'help' they would not have called the Police. The next door neighbor could have helped. They knew when the called that it might excelate out of control or they wouldn't have asked for armed help.

If what you want is a Boyscout don't call the police.

As for the multiple times, I can understand that completely. Studies have shown that once the person has to actually pull the trigger to protect their life they almost never are able to tell you how many times they fired. It is a natural adrenalin filled reaction.

Just because the Police Officer is trained it doesn't mean he is experienced at taking a life. In those situations he's a lot more like you and I than he would like to admit. The big difference is he is probably a better shot.

If it's me I'm going to do the same thing. Whether my gun holds 5 rounds or 15 rounds I'm going to pull the trigger until it stops making loud noises.

Mike Heemer

Also, this guy was tazed twice by 2 different officers with little to no affect.  The guy then charged with 2 knives in hand at one of the officers.  Only then did the 3rd officer discharge his firearm. 

Finder-dont mean to drive you nuts.  Im just a conservative living in a liberal world, someone has to be the voice of liberty.

Steven P Munsey A+, MCP, IASO Orange Park | Green Cove Springs munsey13@comcast.net

Steve;

We all have our place in the world. Yours just happens to be a little farther to the right than mine. 

Besides, for me, most of the time it's more like a short putt than a drive to being nuts. Way too many hours of smelling jet fuel fumes.

Mike Heemer

Angela;

Any change in your comments now that the 'rest of the story' has been on the news?

Seems as though the 'Intervention Officer' called for backup because the individual was getting violent.

He was hit with TWO Tasers by two Officers that did 'work but became dislodged due to his violent maneuvers. Still he was trying to get at the Officers with a 10" knife and a smaller one.

He had a 'realistic looking' BB gun in his pocket and had a record of assault with a deadly weapon charges in his past. Sounds like the 'Otherwise he had harmed no one' statement may have been a bit premature.

Mike Heemer

Mike H. and Steve

You are right on. I have family members in the military and in law enforcement.  If you are taking out that weapon, it isn't for a warning or an attitude adjustment.

The world is full of thugs, Even in our little corner of the world--note the blog with the picture of the dirtbag who put a .38 up to somebody's head on Wells Road.  These are the kind of people that our law enforcement deal with day in and day out.

We should be thankful for our law enforcement's good judgement and pray for their safety every day.

No I have not changed my mind in any way. I just heard he was sitting up. Wait a minute I heard he was coming after them. I guess we will have to wait until the real story comes out. Sort of like the lady in the wheelchair.

People who suffer with mental illness have numerous run ins with the law. Most of the people sitting in jails and prisons have mental illness. Under Governor Bush he had over 300 of them being held illegally in jail. Almost got the Secretary of Dept of Children and Families put in jail for contempt. She resigned one day after being found in contempt of court for failure to place a jail inmate found incompetent to stand trial because of mental illness in a treatment facility.

The cost to place these people in the appropriate setting out of harms way of law enforcement and people who abuse them is a lot cheaper than putting them in the jails. Most of the time they just kill them, justified of course. One day they will figure that concept out. Until then they are the victims of their illness and society. If they ever learn that we could keep dangerous criminals in jail where they belong and put mentally ill people in a hospital where they belong.

This man only refused to let his social worker in who checked on him daily. Otherwise he was no threat nor had he threaten anyone.When law enforcement showed up is when he felt he needed to protect himself. Because he has a mental illness he perceives them to be the threat and he feels he needs to defend himself. Most of the time these individuals have had numerous run ins with the law and quite often are abuse while in their custody. So when they show up they do not see them as people there to help. It is a very dark side of our society concerning some of the most vulnerable in our society. I think having to deal with a mental illness would be hard enough if society even valued these human lives. Most of the time they don't.

Since they refuse to spend money to place these people and give them the help they really need this is the all to often the result. They are generally to busy passing laws that allow double dipping and other nice perks for them and their friends. But that's just government at work.

If this man was having daily visit with a social worker my guess he should have been placed in more intensive treatment but the State probably didn't have a place to put him. That would be due to lack of funding.

I would not want the blood of this individual on my hands.

I have a gun and I will not hesitate to use that gun. With the crime that has been happening in Clay County recently it may be something everyone should consider. What was just in the paper 4 armed robberies at the Orange Park Mall in the last month or two. Now they just put the armed robbery on Wells Road on the website.

In my mind there is a big difference between the two. Someone in distress and with mental illness needs help it's just not usually wise to call law enforcement unless you understand this will most likely be the outcome.

But then I have never called the police. I should get a huge tax rebate for not having to use those services on my property taxes. I guess that will never happen someone has to pay for that double dipping.

We can speculate on mental illnesses and their effects all day long, but if a man is violent enough to dislodge two tazes and still come at officers with a 10 inch knife, the officer has the right to fire his or her weapon, they don't have time to question or play around especially when a 10 inch knife is coming at you.  I don't wish to argue with you angela, but you said you had a gun, no granted your not a cop, at least i don't you think you are, but what would you have done in that situation?

I have carried a firearm well over 20 years. I have alaways been taught you shoot to kill. Two round bursts, center mass.

If I felt my life or someone elses life was in danger, I would use deadly force without hesitation. I would rather have the blood of someone else on my hands, then my blood on theirs.

TRUTHHURTS

I would advocate funding to place these people in the type setting where they can have some quality of life. Not in some apartment and hope they take their meds and can assimilate into society for lack of placement.

They have a CIT program that provides officers with training on mental illness and crisis intervention/de-escalation techniques. This training is proven to help officers de-escalate situations involving individuals in serious mental health crisis. The goal of the program is to keep officers and mental health consumers safe in these encounters. The training results in a more professional, effective and humane response by law enforcement officers to individuals with mental illness.

I will assure you mental health professionals deal with these individuals on a daily basis. We never hear of them killing these individuals or shooting them with Tasers because that would be illegal.

We have failed these people in society long before we got to this situation but it is all to common. 

It is so easy to armchair quarterback this one.  The social worker most likely called LEO because the guy was, in their opinion, either a danger to himself or to them.  If you have ever had any dealings with a mentally ill individual you know that they are capable of doing great harm to either you or themselves. 

Police are faced with a no-win situation when this happens.  If they don't become proactive, and the person hurts themselves, they are at fault.  If they do become proactive, and the individual is harmed, they are at fault.  For them to have tased the individual more than once and have him still taking an aggressive posture, is more than what is necessary to to use deadly force.  It is sad that he was mentally ill, and it is sad that a police officer will go to bed every night knowing he took another person's life.  Police often get a few days off and counseling when they have to take a life.   Since I wasn't there, and the official report is a few days away, we will have to sit this one for a few more days.  

If the individual was that easily pushed over the edge, he should not have been living in an apartment by himself.  Bad things happen even to good people.

All fine and i support, but what would you have done in that particular situation?

Angela, when you call the police, you have relinquished your control over the situation.   When the mental health person called the police, they admitted that the situation had escalated beyond what is normal, even for a mentally ill person.    

I will agree that the individual should not have been living alone given the situation that resulted in their death. 

Angela,

JSO was within the use of force matrix to use deadly force. Once someone armed with a knife comes with in the 21 foot reaction zone they can reach an officer before he can un-holster a weapon and respond to the threat. They responded an officer that has received special training (CIT) in dealing with persons in crisis. “Graham said the caseworker met with resistance from White during a routine visit to his apartment. After White opened the door, he became agitated and the worker called police. The first officer to arrive was C.N. Hall, who is trained in crisis intervention.”

Officer shoots man who pulled knives, Retrieved 3/26/08, http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/032608/met_261640040.shtml

He attempted to resolve the matter and the man raised the ante. JSO first used the Taser before they resorted to deadly force. We are trained to fire a burst of two shots from our duty weapon when engaging in combat and continue shooting until the threat is stopped. The action they took was proper. Your beef is with the law makers for cutting funding for residential treatment. You state that you would advocate for funding. Well start calling your law makers tomorrow. For once I can agree with you on something. We too whish they would get these folks off the street so we don’t have to deal with them and get them some help. It appears from your postings over the last few months either you or someone related in some manner has been introduced to the Taser because you have some big issues with it. I believe it has been the best tool issued to law enforcement in over 30 years. You only hear about the cases that involve death with the Taser. The media fails to report the cases where the Taser was used to subdue an armed person instead of deadly force, which may have been justified.

 Reference to your statement, “But then I have never called the police. I should get a huge tax rebate for not having to use those services on my property taxes. I guess that will never happen someone has to pay for that double dipping.”I have never had any children in the Clay County Schools System and there are double dippers in that system. I should be entitled to a rebate for the 27 years I have paid property tax right? Believe me if I had the authority to get you a rebate I would so you would stop your whining but I am sure you would be on to something else. You are never happy about anything.

The Florida Senate Committee on Criminal Justice defines the Dart firing stun guns and the use of force matrix recommended to law enforcement agencies in the state in this document.

http://www.flsenate.gov/data/Publications/2006/Senate/reports/interim_reports/pdf/2006-110cj.pdf

I would have used the de-escalate techniques and backed off. In hopes to remove the precieved threat to the person having the crisis and hope to talk him out of the situation. Most law enforcement are trained to get a situation under control within minutes. People in a mental heatlh crisis often don't even understand commands be given by officers. It takes time to work with these individuals but we all have a fight or flight reaction regardless if we have a mental health problem or not. That's why they teach you to back off and try to talk to these individuals to remove that reaction. If this guy was being visited daily by DCF they were aware he was having some type serious crisis. He should have been placed in an appropriate facility immediately. I heard on the news tonight this guy was sitting down when he was shot. DCF is clearly at fault here too.

I'll raise your ante. I don't have kids in the school system, I have never called fire and rescue, and I've never called for the assistance of the Sheriff's office. I have paid for many who do.

Fair enough, i don't agree, but i'll be sure to go ahead and agree to disagree.

Whether this person should or shouldn't be in an institution, is between the person, his doctors, his family, and sometimes the court system.

Foxx

I don't care if the person attacking me was a one eyed, one armed, mentally Ill dwarf, with clown make-up on. If I truely felt my life was in danger I would use deadly force.

The go code for me would be fear for my life. If this Officer felt his life was in danger, he had every right to respond the way he did.

From what we know at this point I would have done the same.

TRUTHHURTS

Angela,

Its a tie breaker neither have I. So now whats next Angela? I know you always have to have the last word.

Great would you help me advocate for some roads to help with the traffic congestion?

Are you assuming that i disagree with you or were you referring to something completely diferent?

Foxx

No I think you would do the same it just came out off in the order I think.

I got lost for a second there.

TRUTHHURTS

What is it worth if your house is on fire and you call 911? It's worth every penny you paid in taxes for a fire truck to arrive in minutes and save your home. You won't care if that fire crew is triple dipping or not.

What is it worth if you respiratory arrest in your house and 911 is called and rescue arrives just in time to bag you all the way to the hospital and one week later you come home? That happened to me in real life!!! You won't care if the paramedic has retired from the military  and is back on the job for a second retirement from the state.

What is it worth to have a nursing home attendant make sure you are comfortable in your last days on earth. The school system educated that person so that they are able to take care of you.

What's it worth if one of your children is missing and you call 911 and a police officer arrives minutes later with your child in the front seat?? You won't care if that cop is working on a third state retirement benefit.

I get so sick and tired of people complaining about services they have never used. Until you die, taxes are a form of insurance, you pay the premiums, and hope you never have to collect, but if you do, you are so happy you had the insurance, and you forget about all those premiums you paid.

You never know what card the deck of life will deal to you until it is in your hand.

If you don't want to pay for services, move to Loving County Texas, the county without a county seat. Taxes are low, and you get your moneys worth of services.

You're right Magnumforce, some people are never happy about anything. They just love to whine! Taxes are the cost of living in a modern society. Deal with it or go somewhere else.

Quoting Forrest Gump:  "and that's all I'm gonna say bout that."

Now, Now, it's not whining, it's being inquistive and sharing opinions and being sure that you're politically correct in every statment.  You can't tell someone that they're whining when they're just giving their opinion, you'd better watch out, tommorow you might have several members calling you out for your actions.

When people tell me they don't pay enough taxes and would like to pay more. I tell them to donate. I would suggest they start on April 1 and every time you buy something at the store write down how much you paid in taxes. Every time you pay a bill add all those taxes too. Then when you get paid add those taxes too. Do that for just one month. You may be shocked at how much you do pay.

I don't think the problems are with how much I pay. But what they do with them when they get them.

And they are always looking for ways to get more.

Read the Fair Tax Book

You can't have better road systems, without taxes

You can't have institutions to put all these poor mentally ill folks in without taxes,

You can't have safer streets and traffic cameras without taxes

You can't have fire rescue without taxes

You can't have parks for kids without taxes

You can't have better schools without taxes

You can't have universal health care without taxes

You can't have anything without taxes and increased taxation by the governemnt.

Be happy there are no florida state taxes, or is that what everyone wants?

Nothing...I mean NOTHING is free.

You can't demand more from the government on one hand, and condenm them for taxing you on the other 

TRUTHHURTS

I would support the FLAT TAX. I don't use or demand very much from government other than to stay out of my life. They seem to find enough money to put them in the jails and prisons which cost alot more. I thought is wasn't smart to cut 53 million in funding for people with mental health when they have a budget surplus.

The last time I checked the State of Florida had a $8 billion dollar budget surplus.

When the government has that much surplus we pay way too much taxes. I don't want to hear their whining.

Angela

I will agree with you on your desire for keeping the government out your life, I am on board with you here. 

As for the Flat Tax, I still think it gives the government to much control of my money.

As for the surplus and 53 mill cut, I can't speak to that for I have not researched it to give an opinion.

TRUTHHURTS

In one of your above post you made a statement: "It appears from your postings over the last few months either you or someone related in some manner has been introduced to the Taser because you have some big issues with it."

I have issues with people being denied the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" is one of the most famous phrases in the United States Declaration of Independence. These three aspects are listed among the "inalienable rights" of man. 

Each time that Taser is deployed it has the possibilty of that person being denied their life. A bigger possibility and of more concern is of being use in a matter that should be considered excessive use of force. That is a violation of the Eighth Amendment. Of just the few times I posted it was accompanied with videos showing what I feel are excessive uses of force. However, they all seem to be justified uses of force. This being another incident just like the guy who refused to sign a speeding ticket. The video can be viewed at the top of the article.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/spotlight/news-article.aspx?storyid=105673

Just like I feel the rights of people who suffer mental illness and are often treated as second class citizens in our State. When people are denied their basic human rights in society and we treat them as this man has been and is now dead. Then we praise people and blame the victim just scroll up the post in this blogs alone. I feel the Taser has the potential to violate people's human rights too.

After watching a series of events that happened in Florida concerning mentally ill inmates being held illegally in our jails in violation of the laws. After watching our elected official flounting the laws and court orders. Because this type of arrogant activity cannot be tolerated in an orderly society. I then composed all the information, which I have only briefly touch upon in these blogs. A friend of mine send that information to the FBI in Washington DC. It was clear our elected officials in Tallahassee were not going to do anything.

I am not saying anything about you personally because you have said you have never used your Taser. But you are not all, and those others are the ones that concern me. I believe the use of the Taser for any other reason than used as the last resort before lethal use of force should be stopped. 

I hope you better understand my concerns as a citizen who believes in human rights. 

I would prefer to take policing back 40 years any way. I have always said I was born during the wrong period. If a time machine appeared I would get on. Let’s see we can go back to carrying batons and cracking heads and causing brain damage or broken limbs, using lethal force before trying less lethal alternatives. Yeah I am sure the public would approve and the courts. It’s darn if you do and darn if you don’t. We can never make everyone happy. Angela I would like to have you on the scene of a critical incident to hear your expertise in how they should be handled since you’re so well qualified in the area of use of force and police tactics. I am familiar with some of the bloggers professions on MCS and I would never try and arm chair quarterback their profession and the decisions they make because I am not qualified to do so. I am well qualified in police tactics and have commanded or been on the scene in some supervisory role of over 100 incidents. I know what I am talking about.

I in no way dispute your credentials. I will say if you gave me an option of a broken arm or dead. I would pick the broken arm. That's only if I had the option. As a citizen I don't have a use of force matrix, you do. 

The Taser plugs into your central nervous system which is comprised of your brain, spinal cord with nerves. Many have died and no one knows the long term effects. Besides I wouldn't want anyone tapping into my brain.

Respecting human rights of all people don't require a profession.

Although I am not in law enforcement, I have been associated/ involved with law enforcement for many, many years in many states.  I have seen first hand the different incidents that are responded to by local and state law enforcement officers.  Some incidents have been quite 'hair raising' and I would have perferred not to be present at the time.  However, I was and look on situations that our law enforcement men and women are faced with/ placed in daily with a much different perspective.  Perhaps Angela, if you were to 'ride' (if you haven't done so) with a Clay County Deputy, you could see first hand what these dedicated men and women face.  And it's gotten worse over the years!!  Granted, not all situations are 'life threatening', but if you ever are in or see that situation, I think/hope you would have a much better understanding.  These men and women put their lives on the line for you, me and every human being, every single day, even though it may not involve us directly.  I have personally been placed in, what I considered, a 'live threatening' position twice and had to make a split second analysis/decision on what to do.  If it's my life or their's.....it's theirs!!!!!!  I want to go home, alive, to my family and so do the men and women of law enforcement.

Magnum, save a seat on that time machine for me ...I'd love to go back 40 years!!  THANK YOU for EVERYTHING you do and have done to make our little corner of the world a better place.  I hope you are still out there protecting us.....BE SAFE!!!!!!!!!

In gratitude,

Stryker

I don't dispute anything you say either. I've seen both good and bad law enforcement. As a matter of fact I watch the Secretary of the Dept of Correction with a long and distingished law enforcement career get placed in Fed prison for crimes he committed. This launched into the Dept of Corruption that took many leo out of the picture. It's not only on one side. Just like any profession you have good and bad. But just like those trusted position it is magnified when its the people we trust to protect the people, and they violate that trust.

Respecting human rights of all people is something we all should do. As far the mentally ill and what this State has done should be a black cloud over this State for every citizen who lives here.

If we can't protect the most venerable in our society those who need our help the most then we are losing sight of who we are as people and our power to help those.

Angela,

Crosby was not qualified to be the head of the Florida Department of Corrections. He surrounded himself with incompetent people that were not qualified to hold the positions they were appointed. He condoned corruption soon after he pinned on the badge. Several years ago his prison softball team rented the entire floor of a motel on St. Augustine beach. While playing volleyball and horse playing in the pool they started a fight with a guy walking by minding his own business. When St. Johns County S/O arrived they backed the deputy down and he had to call for assistance. Finally Crosby emerges from the crowd when a Sheriff’s supervisor gets on the scene and he assures the local Sheriff’s Office he would handle the rowdy drunken correctional officers. Crosby held the rank of Major during this time and what a great leader out getting trashed with his subordinates. I am sure he disciplined them harshly with more alcohol.  I know this to be fact because the deputy from St. Johns County is a friend of mine and he is believable. His appointment by Governor Jeb Bush was a major mistake. Crosby is a disgrace.

Angela,

Let’s hear how you would have handled that call with the mentally ill man in Jacksonville. No Taser, the only weapons on your tool belt is a 40 caliber Glock, a collapsible asp, and a can of pepper spray. You have a back up on the scene with you.

I am all ears and eyes waiting. Ring the school bell for this old cop.

I am very familiar with Crosby, his son, his cousin. Clark and his son. His baseball problems and a whole list of other problems. I know more information than I care to give Crosby in blogging space. Because he is a disgrace.

One of the best things I've seen happen in the State of Florida in a long time was the FBI showed up and cleaned house.

Magnum as I said above: I in no way dispute your credentials.

People in the State of Florida with mental illness have been failed by our State long before this incident happened. They have been failed before the police even arrived.

Hopefully they would use their training in CIT and work to do everything they can to preserve his life and not have to take his life. Because these individuals don't even understand what is happening.

I understand sometimes even under the best circumstances that doesn't work.

You know these individuals are not knowingly and willingly disobeying a lawful order. They do not have the mental ability to know and understand when they are having a serious mental health crisis. They can not make those rational decisions. After all who in there right mind would bring a knife to a gun fight with an experience and trained officer who shoot to kill.

My point, a black cloud hangs over the State of Florida for the inablilties to protect these vulnerable members of our society.

I would have used the de-escalate techniques and backed off. In hopes to remove the precieved threat to the person having the crisis and hope to talk him out of the situation. Most law enforcement are trained to get a situation under control within minutes. People in a mental heatlh crisis often don't even understand commands be given by officers. It takes time to work with these individuals but we all have a fight or flight reaction regardless if we have a mental health problem or not. That's why they teach you to back off and try to talk to these individuals to remove that reaction.

There's your answer magnum in the middle of the blog, of course angela might be dead right now, but that's of course beside the point!

The Crisis Intervention Team (CIT) law enforcement training model was established in Memphis, Tennessee in 1987 following an incident where an individual with a mental health disorder and substance abuse history was fatally shot during police response to a crisis situation.  As a result of public outcry for alternative ways of intervening when responding to situations involving persons with mental illness, the Memphis Police Department joined in partnership with the Memphis Chapter of the Alliance for the Mentally Ill, mental health providers and two local universities.  These groups worked together to develop and organize a specialized training and support model for law enforcement to ensure a safe and compassionate response to mental health crises.

Others who are not law enforcement can take this training as well.

The last time I checked Memphis has not had to fatally shoot anyone since they started the program.

But then as I stated in the above post even under the best circumstances some situations are unavoidable.

But then I guess it comes down to how much value we place on all human life. After all that could any of us who at no fault of our own would have to live life dealing with mental illness or any other illness.

In the State of Florida the way they deal with people with mental health issues.

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/032808/opl_262353937.shtml

Signed:

Charlie Brown.

Try being a lawman, no matter how you are trained and having someone put your life in jeopardy. GEEZ! The quick or the dead.  Do you have statistics that show how many police officers were injured dealing with a mentally ill person after this program was instituted?  I doubt it, since your information came from the people who champion mental health rights, and don't care about others rights.

I know many mental health professionals that deal with mentally ill individuals on a daily basis. Lots of them are having serious mental health crisis. To date I have never heard of them shooting them or using a Taser.

When I get some time I will try to research those stats concerning law enforcement.

Angela,

You hit the nail on the head. I agree with you on the statements you made.

“Hopefully they would use their training in CIT and work to do everything they can to preserve his life and not have to take his life. Because these individuals don't even understand what is happening. I understand sometimes even under the best circumstances that doesn't work.”

You are absolutely correct. There was a crisis counselor on scene that could not get the situation under control and she called for police assistance. Most likely she has a Bachelors or Masters degree in mental health counseling or may even be a licensed mental health counselor. As for the use of the Taser, that is the equipment issued to officers by their agency administrators. Don’t criticize the officer take your beef up with the head of the agency.

“People in the State of Florida with mental illness have been failed by our State long before this incident happened. They have been failed before the police even arrived.”

You bet. Funding for mental health has been cut and a lot of these folks have been turned to the streets out of residential treatment. A lot of them need monitoring around the clock. They wonder the streets and live in boxes and tents where ever they can set up. Some have it a little better. I always thought it was insane to Baker Act someone for 72 hours that is considered a threat to themselves or others then once they were released there was little to no follow up by mental health providers.

Now here is where the problem lies with law enforcement dealing with these types of incidents. Basic recruits and inexperienced officers are not prepared and it takes advanced training, time, patience and experience on the job. Also not everyone is cut out for this task. There are some officers that could tick off the Pope. As a police instructor, I teach basic recruit students in gang identification and crisis intervention. The curriculum for crisis intervention is very basic. It takes years of experience in honing communication skills, patience and understanding the dynamics of crisis intervention. It doesn’t happen over night. I have been in the hot seat many times negotiating armed (Firearms) barricaded persons threatening suicide or holding a loved one hostage in a domestic dispute gone bad. Some of these have been face to face and that was not by choice. It was a case of bad timing and location. You never give up ground that you have already have taken in these situations once on the scene. It’s always better to negotiate an armed person from a distance behind cover or by phone. Knock on wood all of my cases were resolved peacefully.

As Foxx posted, “use de-escalating techniques and back off.” I am not sure what you mean by back off. You have to maintain containment to negotiate. Contain and negotiate from out of sight by phone or bull horn and deploy de-escalating tactics. These matters are not always resolved in a few minutes. I have spent hours talking someone out of a hospital emergency room, house, closet, bathroom, culvert and the front seat of an automobile. It is always a plus to have some background on the person as for what they are suffering from and family ties. You look for what is called the Hooks and Triggers during your probing of the person in conversation. If you allow the person to go mobile you can not help them, and then they could become a danger to others in the area. You only go mobile unless it’s to your advantage. Lessons learned in Munich, West Germany in 1972 during the Summer Olympics. The police allowed the hostage takers (Black September) to go mobile with members of the Israeli Olympic Wrestling Team to a near by airport where a plane they had been negotiating for was sitting on the tarmac. It ended in disaster on the Tarmac. The police had lost control and containment. They were better off staying in the dorm area in the Olympic Village.

Believe me from a law enforcement position we want these cases resolved peacefully. If not we have a host of unqualified critics armchair quarterbacking operations and attorneys lining up to take us to court.

Have a great weekend.

Angela;

I know many mental health professionals that deal with mentally ill individuals on a daily basis. Lots of them are having serious mental health crisis. To date I have never heard of them shooting them or using a Taser.

You are right, they don't shoot them or use a Taser on them. They call the Police and let them do it. That way they can sit back with you and the rest of the 'Police Brutality' crew and critique the poor guy at the point on how he should have done something else.

Maybe he should have 'backed off' and called a mental health worker to control the situation.

Oops there was a 'trained professional' mental health worker already on sight wasn't there? That would be the one that couldn't handle the situation. With all that training they still had to call in force. They do a nice job till the crap hits the fan then they 'back off' and let someone else take the heat.

Unfortunately there are a lot of people like you that are ready to light the fire that roasts the cop that has to do the shooting.

What the heck did they expect? Did they think the cop was going to come in and hand the guy a lollypop and he was going to settle down? Like I said before, if you want a 'Boyscout' don't call a cop. The 'Boyscout' as already on sight and couldn't control the person.

If it has anything to do with 'government' you want to bash it. You want less of it because all they do is hire idiots that shouldn't be there.

The problem is most of the responses from you in this blog indicate that 'government' should have done something for this guy. What were they supposed to do? Were they to physically take this guy off the street and put him in some institution against his will?

We used to do that. They were commonly called insane asylums. They are illegal now because they violated people's rights.

You can't expect 'government' to do something without more government. You can't have more government without more taxes.

Maybe you should send one of those many 'mental health professionals' that you know so well out to see this cop to see how well he is dealing with the fact that he had to kill someone and is now being held up as a pariah for doing his job.

I'll bet his family could use some help also. I'm sure they're just thrilled to have their loved one denigrated as a gun happy incompetent 'Barney Fife' that shouldn't have been given any bullets for his gun.

Mike Heemer

Magnum Have a nice weekend.

With a State government that has an 8 billion dollar surplus (profit) and they continually cut funding. How much more taxes should we pay when they are already making a profit. I find it odd they can find the money to house them in jail which is very costly.

Mike this is Florida at its finest it has 4 pages. You should read them all. Critical indeed.

http://cbs4.com/topstories/Forgotten.Floor.Miami.2.395542.html

 Angela:  I believe the following paragraph, taken from the story you mentioned, pretty much sums it up.

"If we had this kind of care and treatment in the Dade County animal shelter, people would be up in arms, if they could see how inmates are living in that jail on the psych wards, if they could see that, and respond the same way they respond to kittens and puppies, then things begin to change but nobody wants to look."

Magnumforce:  No one is more appreciative of the men and women, including yourself, who put their lives on the line each and every day for the human good than myself.  Many, many times over the years had it not been for the police department, my brother would not have lived as long as he did. The times he became lost, they willingly and graciously helped to find him.  The times he needed hospitalization, and would not go on his own, the police helped us, the family.  I have the utmost respect for the uniform.  So, thank you for enlightening me on the question I asked when I started this blog.

I think I did this about animal control in Clay County. I hope we can all come together to make the State of Florida be what it should. In the meantime helping those that need our help the most.

Thanks for starting the blog. God bless, families deal with this on a daily basis because it does not just effect the person but the family as well. I hope only the best for you and your family.

Your blog was in the MCS newspaper today. Just thought you would like to know

I didn't see that! 

You want to know why Police Officers shoot? Read the story of one Officer's evening on patrol in Palatka.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/news-article.aspx?storyid=105856

You would think the police would have backed off and let this situation cool off. I mean the guy may have had mental health issues that could have been resolved and they wouldn't have had to send the dogs in after him.

I suppose if the Officer hadn't shot at him he might have quit firing when his gun was empty and just went to jail quietly.  But the cop never gave him a chance. He started shooting back as soon as the guy pulled the trigger.

Darn overzealous cops. Of course he ran away the guy was scared and the cop was shooting at him. Now this poor guy is sitting in jail with dog bites just because of a trigger happy cop. 

All the Officer had to do was call for a backup mental health worker and this whole thing could have been resolved without having to resort to high a speed chase, stop sticks and dogs.

Mike Heemer