Clay Quality of Life Council survey is up and running...

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/030108/nec_252196257.shtml http://clayqol.com/  Here is the list of Quality Council subcommittees and their chairmen:Education - Nancy AlbertsEconomy - John WilkinsonEnvironment - Karen LakeSocial well being - Nancy KeatingArts/culture - Joy MyersRecreation - Greg YoungHealthy community - UndeterminedResponsive government - Bill GarrisonTransportation - John Tabor, 616-7057

Community safety - Undetermined

It is not that hard to understand why someone would be skeptical about this survey.  Why couldn't the survey have been conducted by the County itself?

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/030108/nec_252196257.shtml 

http://clayqol.com/  

Here is the list of Quality Council subcommittees and their chairmen:

Education - Nancy Alberts

Economy - John Wilkinson

Environment - Karen Lake

Social well being - Nancy Keating

Arts/culture - Joy Myers

Recreation - Greg Young

Healthy community - Undetermined

Responsive government - Bill Garrison

Transportation - John Tabor, 616-7057

Community safety - Undetermined

Read - almost all of the subcommittees have co-chairs.  If you are going to post names, you should be complete.

FYI - articles were run in all of the local papers to solicit volunteers for the various subcommittees.  The Responsive Government subcommittee received 1, as in 1, volunteer response.  1 out of over 100,000 voters.  There's your answer.  Apathy.

I'm glad there are people who push on working hard to make Clay County as good as it can be despite a never-ending cacophony of naysayers and detractors.  God Bless the 1st Amendment.

Do you (read) believe there is any good to come from this sort of effort, or is this just a waste of private (as in non-government) money?  Your question about the County doing the survey itself is a good one.  Have you ever heard the BCC discuss visioning?  You'd think they were being asked to walk through downtown GCS in the nude.  Maybe it's another example of private enterprise getting tired of waiting on "leadership" from the government.  I'm extremely pleased to be a part of what will hopefully become a blueprint for the future of Clay County.

Bill Garrison.

Bax/Key;

Between the response here and the new blog I'd guess you might be feeling like the saying 'No good deed shall go unpunished' is true.

I just want to let you know that there is at least one person out here that thinks you are both doing a good thing.

Thanks for volunteering for your respective committees. I'm sure you'll both do a great job.

Mike Heemer

I could not post anything other than what was available to me publicly:

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/021508/nec_246624658.shtml

Apathy or a feeling that no one of authority really listens anyway.

I respect volunteers of all sorts, mostly those with no way of greatly profitting from the outcome.  Those with no temptation or inclination to steer things to their advantage.  I am not a naysayer or detractor of progress. 

I don't know if the survey included enough people.  The only way I heard about it was here.  Not a big surprise if traffic turns out to be the number one complaint.   I will think about why the County did not do the survey and whether or not it was an oversight not to use the community's help.  The community voices could have served them well, if the information is acted on effectively.

I'm happy the QOL visioning committee spent a good deal of its time discussing what's "right" about Clay County.  From anyone's perspective, I think we'd all admit that there is a whole lot more positive than negative about where we live.  And it's extremely important that we protect those good things as we move into the future.

Citizen apathy, Bax, is probably the single-biggest impediment to efficient, effective government.  I've always said people only get government as responsive as what they demand.  But I'm not sure apathy is the sole reason for the lack of volunteers.

Most adults, no matter how much they would like to be actively involved, don't work jobs where they can take a full day off to participate in sessions like the one Monday at Thrasher-Horne, much less make a commitment to the continuing efforts of the committee and its nine subcommittees.

Karen, I must be reading F.S. 163.3184(17), the statute that created these visioning committees, incorrectly.  It seems to me that if the county does adopt the "vision," it will eliminate state and regional agency review of land-use amendments.  Also, the visioning will exempt Comprehensive Plan amendments from the current limitation on the frequency of amendments.  Am I reading it wrong?

Michael S. Mann

In your previous blog entitled Highlands DRI Update, I asked you a few questions and you either did not see the questions or ignored them.  I kindly asked the questions because you have an insight to such things that the rest of us do not.

My consideration of growth in Clay County would not include the building of more golf courses in Clay County in the near future.  When it is well known that The Ravines has closed and I have also heard that Magnolia Point Golf is suffering; how do you expect any ordinary person with a little common sense not to wonder why the County Commissioners could approve two to three more golf courses?  How do expect any ordinary person to rally behind a developer who even proposes building another golf course in Clay County under the above mentioned circumstances?  Most have already acknowledged that The Ravines is exceptional.  If it, being extraordinary and an asset to any county, did not make it and it would like to be restored, why approve more competition?

I am not saying that the Highlands will have a golf course but I think that Governor's Park and Saratoga Springs will.

I may have a problem lining up all the think cells sometimes but I must ask a few questions.

What is the issue of golf course or no golf course? Why would you care one way or the other? Is it of great significance to the general public? Do you have the same curiosity and concern about opening another Pizza Parlor or Hamburger Joint? Does this have anything to do with how much the county gets or doesn't get?

I don't get the point of your comments. There must be something I am missing or don't realize that I should be concerned about.

Mike Heemer

Mr (Ms) read,

sorry my response was a little slow - I had to quit goofing off and go to work.  I'm back to goofing off.  I mostly check the site in the evenings after I get home from work, but since there isn't anything for us builders to build anymore, I get a few minutes during the day to check in on The Sun.  Believe me, I would never intentionally ignore any comment.

Re golf courses - I know the Highlands does not have one, and I'm not sure at all about the other 2 DRI's.  Personally, I hope a plane load of golfing addicts is headed to Clay County and they all want to buy a brand new home.  I guess it's all a matter of perspective.  I can tell you for a fact that the latest DRI with a golf course (Eagle Landing at Oakleaf) is having a hard time giving away houses, let alone selling them.  So, I seriously doubt if any sane business man (aka developer) would run out and gamble tens of millions of dollars on a business plan that won't produce a profit.  I could be wrong.  Maybe, maybe, there's a developer who has more money than sense and wants to aggravate all of the environmentalists in the world by putting in a golf course.  Somehow, I doubt it though.

Apathy or frustration?  Either could be the case, and I agree with what Mike is saying about the hours of the event (business hours).  I only half-way buy that because I assure you if said person really wanted to attend, they could make arrangements.  Don't tell me "they" have never called in sick to play hooky, or went on a field trip with their kid, or just told their boss - I'll be off tomorrow for a very important event to me.  I agree, making these events in the evening when working folks could attend would no doubt increase attendance, but I'd be willing to bet you a free foursome at the golf course of your choice that there still wouldn't be a handful more attending.  I guarantee you that many of the attendees had to make arrangements to get off work for the day.

I don't want to seem too argumentative about this issue, but as a person who has been involved in civic issues for over 20 years in Clay County, and who couldn't be more of an "outsider" if I tried, the idea that the "insiders" have some secret club that they keep all the rest of "us" out of is BS.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again - people will be as involved as they want to be.  It's a lot easier to sit back and throw rocks and say "they won't let me play" than it is to take time away from your job, family, hobby, golf, boating, etc. and actually volunteer to participate.  Period.

PS - please do not be put off if it takes me a day or two to respond, I really don't get a chance to see the site until I get home from work.  Thanks for the conversation.

Mike F.

Thank you for that recognition. I don't personally want or need it but it irritates me to no end when people - who didn't step a toe into the conference room - espouse their version as the gospel truth when it couldn't be further from the truth. One person cannot coerce or manipulate 100 people in a room when they are genuinely there to move this county forward. So on their behalf, I wage this battle with the naysayers and detractors.

And by the way, some of our own bloggers are participating - a big shout out to ClayCounty. :) Thank you for being there. I had the privilege of sitting with (among others) Neil Armingeon, the St. Johns Riverkeeper. What a great day of conversation with someone who not only cares about the River but the region's watershed issues. He's seen our lakes in Keystone and recognizes the need for more investigation into lower ground water levels.

OK, 'nough said. I'll step down off my soap box.

Mike M.

I am not an attorney - probably a good thing - so I could be off base but this survey may not qualify because it is not being sponsored by the County. The Chamber's Foundation is picking up most of the $150k tab and supplemented by private donations. The legal opinion I've been exposed to says, "no," it doesn't qualify and even if it did, there are several others hurdles to clear. If you're interested in this legal opinion, contact me privately and I make sure contact is made.

I agree with you, it's time to protect and preserve what we have.

For those interested the quality of life vision for Clay County's future is independent from the Comprehensive Plan vision, although it may inform it.

Just like the Economic Development study that was done by the Chamber that was used as a catalyst for the Outer Beltway. If built the citizens will pay for that road and bridge in the form of (taxes) tolls. Brilliant group of folks in the county who decided to remove a free access in to and out of the county and force us the taxpayers to pay for their road due to their poor planning.

I can't wait to see what I get stuck with out of this survey and the visioning for the county. I'm certain we the citizens will get the short end of the road like the beltway.

Just another day in Clay.

Hello to Key2Life and Baxley, my fellow subcommittee members, and to all,

I would agree that if someone is interested they would make time for the QOL.  I know that is what I had to do because I feel that what I am doing is important.  I am on the Social Well-being subcommittee and am really impressed by the open dialog and the members on the subcommittee.  I feel energized by this opportunity and I met so many others who have a good attitude and are looking to serve the citizenry. 

 I look forward to seeing you next week.

Thank you to all who are participating in this project. I would have loved to have become involved in this but for my ongoing family situation. As a matter of fact it's back to West Palm for me. (I also wouldn't step foot in the Thrasher-Horne arena but that's another rant.)

Would it be too much to ask for a weekly update on what is being discussed? (Or however often you will be meeting.0 Will the meetinsg be open to the public? I can keep in touch from out of town and I find all of this extremely interesting. Thanks

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

lily,

I'd be happy to give an update to our progress. I think it's an important process and the end result will be something that is quantifiable that we can track from year to year to make sure we are moving in the direction of our vision.

I'm sorry you cannot participate (and understand the reasons for it) so maybe you'll consider the project next year when it comes back around.

If you're in the area, we will be breaking out into sub-committees next Friday beginning at 8:30 a.m. Each committee will be taking a broad vision statement and creating a list of indicators to track our progress (or lack of).

So for example, in the area of Preserving the Natural Environment, part of the vision statement includes preserving, sustaining and giving citizens access to the St. Johns River.

Data to track this part of the vision could come from St. Johns River Water Management District (Environmental Resource Permit numbers), DEP (water quality reports) or numbers of public access to the River.

Then we'll develop strategies from the data collection to get us where we want to go. Taking the above example, the committee could recommend that county government needs to identify lands on the river which can be purchased for public access using grant resources...

That's a simplistic description but I wanted you to see that there will be some teeth in the final report when JCCI completes the study in July.

Be well, lily.

Karen Lake

In response to your inquiry below:

Golf Courses  Submitted by finder on Thu, 03/06/2008 - 2:48pm.

I may have a problem lining up all the think cells sometimes but I must ask a few questions.

What is the issue of golf course or no golf course? Why would you care one way or the other? I care because I have been watching what happens when a golf course closes or begins to fail and all homeowners are severely affected, those who live on the course and those who do not.  There are more things to consider besides the loss to the owners in property values and their view of the course.  There are people who lose their jobs when a golf course closes, people who lose cash spent in yearly dues to help support the course, etc.  I care because it makes no sense to me to add two additional golf courses as competition to the two golf courses already in the area of Middleburg and Green Cove Springs.  How could anyone expect all of them to survive and prosper?

I care in general when developers/builders are allowed to make severe changes in the quality of life in a community without any other owner’s consent because they hold the developer rights set forth in the governing documents for as long as they are in control.  They make their sales and then leave the homeowners with whatever success or failures they have created.  Developers do not care about the continued success of a golf course, they only care that it sells lots.  After the sales are complete, it is no longer their concern.  Golf course designers probably care much more about whether or not one goes back to nature. I care that so few people decide what so many must live by or with.  

Is it of great significance to the general public?  Yes, it should be.  Your commissioners should care.   

Do you have the same curiosity and concern about opening another Pizza Parlor or Hamburger Joint? Pizza parlors or hamburger joints don’t have the same impact as a golf course, in many, many ways.  

Does this have anything to do with how much the county gets or doesn't get?  I don’t understand that question.  I don’t know if you mean does this have anything to do with what the County gets in money or if you are asking does this have anything to do with what the County understands.

I don't get the point of your comments. Sorry, I get my point.  In my mind, it all makes sense.   There must be something I am missing or don't realize that I should be concerned about.

Thank you for your response.

I would like to offer some information about Golf Courses. I am not certain about the Highlands DRI but it is being contested by DCA with nurmerous objections Rightfully so we don't need another housing development in Clay County. To stick some industry on there to make it more appealing does not impress me either. What type industry do you think will sit along side of houses, retail stores.

Saratoga Springs which is with Landmar but is a Jack Myers of Reinhold's project and does say Golf Course. The CLAY COUNTY GOLF CLASSIC, INC. is a non-profit and the registered agent is James P Kuhn also with Reinhold. Non-profit does not mean they don't make money.

I think the QOL is being promoted by Ray Avery who is also a sponsor. I was very disappointed in the Clay County Utility who paid a draw-down fine of 272,151K in taxpayers money to withdraw money out of the SBA in that recent snafu in the State of Florida. I call it a government Enron of taxpayers money. They were advised to leave the money in the account. 

As leaders in the community business decisions should count when dealing with taxpayers money. Of course that's just my opinion.

Read;

Why should the Commissioners care if a business succeeds or fails? There isn't much they can do about it.

If they were just building a golf course without any houses would you still be as concerned? Why do we need another Publix on 17 in Fleming Island? Aren't there enough grocery stores there already? Should the general public or the commissioners care about that business failing?

Your concerns about a golf course still doesn't make sense to me, but if it does to you then so be it.

Mike Heemer

The Commissioners might care about the people in the community losing jobs.  In the case of another golf course failure, I will try again to explain the difference between a pizza parlor, hamburger joint or a Publix versus a golf course.  I have not seen the new Publix so I don’t know how close it is to the other Publix.

If they were just building a golf course without any houses, yes, I would still be as concerned.  A golf course is a mammoth failure if it fails.  It takes a tremendous maintenance business just to make one look nice and playable.  There is extra landscaping to be done other than the course itself to make the property appealing or more appealing than another competing golf course.  Then there are the employees that must be hired to have any kind of good service and good customer service so that you can attract and keep customers.  There is nationwide and sometimes worldwide marketing to pay for, golf associations to join, etc.   

Since The Ravines news coverage I have done a great deal of reading on golf course closures in Florida and around the country.  There are many courses that are built to attract buyers for premium priced lots for homes with a golf course view.  After the development is built-out the developer moves on to his next project.  Sometimes the golf course is a privately run course and not involved with the homeowner’s association.  Sometimes the golf course has been set up by the developer as an amenity and each homeowner must pay assessments, sometimes in addition to their regular homeowner association assessments to help fund the golf course.  Those assessments are the CDD fees that you hear about on the Real Estate Channel when they say proudly, as if it is a selling point not to have CDD fees, “No CDD fees.”  CDD stands for Community Development District.  Florida Statutes Chapter 190 can explain more about these.  You may already live in such a community. 

Some people buy a golf course lot not for playing golf but for the view of the golf course, the green space it provides and the privacy for the most part that it allows.  If you move into a community with CDD fees that you know about, that is one thing.  You know what to expect and what to budget for.  You may not know that they are set artificially low until after the developer leaves.  When there are no CDD fees, and CDD fees provide no guarantee that the golf course will survive anyway; if it fails, a golf course will then be sold and turned into more home lots. 

When the golf course is a privately run course, not supported in any way by the homeowners surrounding it other than voluntary memberships, someone may come along and try to turn that community into a Community District Development.  That would mean that people already living in the community with a golf course, people who did not locate there for the game of golf would be required to pay an additional assessment along with their homeowner assessment to help support the course.  Those assessments will go up and never down.  If you already live in the community and don’t have the budget for additional assessments, you are not going to be happy.  Guess what, even after this sort of transition takes place, a golf course still may not survive and will be sold to a developer for more development.  If those CDD assessments, like homeowner association assessments, are not paid, a lien may be placed on your home.  Along with liens comes delinquent fees, interest and attorney fees.   

I went further than I needed to, I think, but for the Commissioners to approve two more communities with golf courses so close together is poor planning, in my opinion.  They approve the plans that make it to Tallahassee; they in all respects make it happen.   

Before you ask, no I don’t live on a golf course lot and in this life never have.  I can read though.   

If someone wants to build, buy or invest in a golf course, they should be prepared to operate it themselves, sit on their Board of Directors and have a vote in the way it is operated.  If the golf course prospers then those people can enjoy the benefits of that success.  If the course fails and is sold to a developer, no one gains except the real owner of the property, not the homeowners in the community.  There will be no partnership applied when that happens. No part of the profit from the sale will go to the homeowners. The homeowners in the community should not bear the entire burden for the business venture of a private owner.  I am sure that less than 20 per cent of the owners in a community join the golf course in their own subdivision, therefore the customers must come from outside the community.  No one will come often enough for a course to be profitable if there are so many other golf courses in which to choose. 

If the point will become more clear to you if I use hamburgers, if there were 20 restaurants within 20 miles from your house but they were all of the same chain, the customer base for that kind of hamburger would be spread so thin per store that it would not be long before they started to close.  Each individual restaurant would not have enough customers to maintain a profit.    

Running a golf course in the black has become more and more difficult and it isn't just here in N.E. Florida.  Another local development: there is word around OP that the owner of Orange Park County Club has said that any proerty owner in the club has until the end of April to join.  After that date, no memberships will be accepted and that includes subsquent owners of any property.  It sounds like that owner is issuing an ultimatum.  Is that legal? If it is true, it seems a pretty dire method to boost membership.

Some nice statements in here. Too bad many of them are inaccurate. You need to go read the statute for CDDs before you make what you believe to be factual statements.

A developer cannot just come in and make a community into a CDD. They must have 100% homeowner approval.

I guess you haven't read many of my posts. I know and understand CDD and O&M (you might have to go look that one up) fees quite well. I live in a CDD.

Your last paragraph seems a bit uninformed. Now here in Clay County it might have some validity but if you go to someplace with a bit more population you can find a Starbucks on 3 of 4 corners of the same intersection. You can find 5 McDonalds within 2 miles of each other.

As to the Ravines, and a CDD, apples and oranges. The Ravines is NOT a CDD. The idiot that ran the Golf Course into the ground would have run a lemon aide stand into the ground. When you draw more salary than a business can support you are not going to make a profit. His intentions were less than honorable when he bought the place.

As to jobs lost when a course closes, I think perhaps you really need to do some more homework on how many people are employed at hamburger and pizza joints. There are a lot more than you think.

As to the commissioners being concerned about the loss of jobs, I didn't hire them to be business managers and do any due diligence as to whether a business was going to succeed. I want them concerned about whether the business is going to cause environmental issues and land usage etc but not whether they can make a profit.

Mike Heemer

Finder,

I know that The Ravines is not a CDD community.

I know that a CDD that was not set up as a CDD in the beginnning of its development has to be voted in by 100% of the owners.  What I said was "...someone may come along and try to turn that community into a Community District Development."  I did not say it would be a golf course owner or developer.  Homeowners can be convinced that making this change would be a good thing for the subdivision and try to convince other homeowners to put forth that 100% effort. 

You have not spoken to the the same person that I have inside The Ravines that tell me,

that is just what is being discussed there. 

In reference to your last paragraph; you don't think that a golf course is an environmental issue?  I didn't bring up anything about that because I thought that was obvious enough.

Good luck convincing 100% of the owners to care enough to vote about this or any other issue.

Visit any homeowners' association meeting and you will see the board members and at the most a handful of residents. Even hot button issues such as increasing dues, excessive speeding, building boat slips by the association for boat owning board members' benefit, etc. seldom causes more than a sigh among apathetic residents.

Contact most homeowner associations at board election time and you will see the same handful of people serving time and time again because for the most part, residents don't care to get involved.

To change our covenants would take a 2/3 vote... a number that would never be reached in our neighborhood.

Actually I did not say that a golf course is not an environmental issue. I said I want the BCC to be concerned about things like that, not whether a business is going to make a profit or fail.

I guess I'm still missing something here. What business is it of yours if a developer tries to convince homeowners in the Ravines or anywhere else to become a CDD?

If you live there, and don't want to be a CDD, don't sign the paper. If you don't live in the involved community then how is it that you should have any concern or say in what happens there?

Have you taken it upon yourself to protect those poor ignorant uninformed homeowners from themselves? It sounds to me like you have a great dislike for ANY developer that wants to create a CDD. Or is it any developer at all? Why do I say that? Your statement that - Homeowners can be convinced that making this change would be a good thing -implies that in your opinion it is always a bad thing. The fact is it might be the best thing for a particular community.

Did I say that this would the best thing for the Ravines? Absolutely not! I don't know anything about what is being discussed in the Ravines. I don't live there and it isn't any of my business. If perchance they were to vote to make it a CDD then so be it. That is their decision not mine or yours.

Perhaps we should have made the BCC disapprove building two churches side by side on 17 because they were too close together and one or both of them might fail. Besides I think we have more churches than we need in Clay County already. Why should the county let them build any more? Some church might come along and try to convince them all to change over to one denomination and become one mega church? 

See how arrogant that sounds?

What business is it of mine if they build 10 churches side by side or if they build 10 golf courses in Clay County? A golf course or a church or an Enron if they all fail or succeed it still is not my business. 

Mike Heemer

In response to:

CDD -Read44  Submitted by finder on Sun, 03/09/2008 - 10:22am.

What business is it of mine?  As much as it is of yours.  You care enough to have begun this conversation by asking me questions.  I answered your questions to the best of my ability and with my opinion.  That is all this is, opinion. This tread began about the survey and the vision of the residents of Clay County.  I am a resident and my vision of Clay County does not include adding too many golf courses to the landscape of Clay County.  I do believe that the County Commissioners should be concerned about the success of the businesses in the County because those successes also help Clay County and its residents succeed.

I don’t consider the people in The Ravines to be ignorant and uninformed.  I give them a great deal of credit for the research they have done in order to become informed.  They don’t all agree with one another, but they do care enough to delve into information as it is presented to them.  Many thought they were just moving in to retire and play golf or raise a family in a quiet, somewhat natural environment; many have damaged longstanding friendships and many don’t know what the heck to think.

Read;

Perhaps I didn't misunderstand from the very beginning. At first I thought that you just didn't like golf course and I was trying to determine why.

Then I was under the impression that you were trying to protect everyone from the evil developers.

I only cared about the golf course issue because I could not quite figure out what the issue was. I believe I may need to go back to my first impression. That is you just don't want any more golf courses in Clay County.

I am a resident and my vision of Clay County does not include adding too many golf courses to the landscape of Clay County. 

You are allowed to have that opinion. Just say it right out in the open. 'I don't want any more golf courses in Clay County!' You don't have to justify it with some fuzzy logic about the commissioners should care about whether a business is a success or couching it under the guise of wanting to help protect home buyers from the evil developer. 

Businesses open and close every day. Should we have not let 'Sofa Express' open in OP? I mean don't we have enough furniture stores already? They just declared bankruptcy and are going to shut their doors. People are going to (already have) lost jobs. Where were the Commissioners when this was allowed to happen?

I think perhaps your first statement in the last response says it all.

What business is it of mine?  As much as it is of yours.

That to me is the entire issue here. It is not ANY of my business if they build 10 courses or 50 Starbucks or 25 Pizza Huts as long as they meet all the environmental requirements and codes.

If someone wants to open a nude dancer business next to a school I'd agree that shouldn't be allowed to happen.

If you want to open a bar next to a church, not my business have at it. You may have a tough time getting customers through the protesters but give it a try if you want. You want to open a McDonalds next to another McDonalds go ahead. It will probably be a Burger King in 6 months but it's your money not mine.

Somehow you keep coming back to the Ravines. Except that there happens to be a golf course there this is not about them. Never was. Or is it?

And that is my opinion.

Mike Heemer

You brought up the question of what the Commissioners should care about, not I.

I did not say that there should not be any more golf courses in Clay County, I said not too many and earlier I said not so close together.  I also think that Eagle Harbor and Fleming Island golf courses are too close together.

How many subjects are discussed primarily here on this blog site?  This entails conversations previously discussed here concerning, surveys, vision, planning, the Commissioners, growth management, PUD's, amendments to the comprehensive plan, etc.  You act like bringing up The Ravines is something out of the ordinary. 

I am finished with this conversation.  

Before you beat me up----A slight correction; you brought up why I should care and I said the Commissioners should care.  I apologize to you.  You did bring up the premise of caring.

I also said that considering the slow business of other golf courses in the area, I did not think there should be anymore built in the near future.

Now can we end this?  It is too nice outside. 

I just had to jump in here, as in 1998 I worked with the educator of the American Garden Club to develop a brochure with information on golf courses and the environment.  Data was provided by many sources including responsible course designers across the country.  That was my first real eye opener as to the environmental impact of golf courses, with all the chemicals and water usage needed for the upkeep in order to entice players to utilize the facility.  It has to be “pretty” so people will want to purchase homes overlooking the greens, etc.  

Even though I am not a golfer, my parents were and my Dad used to dream of building his own golf course on our 60 acres of land in upstate NY.  Retrospectively, it would have been a super place for a course – hills (in every direction), open fields, water, woods, etc., but he could never find anyone to invest in his dream.  

Free enterprise is the American way, and if someone wants to build a golf course, and has the backing to do so, fine.  I just feel that the course in itself should not involve hundreds of residences and be the selling point for people to move to a community. It should be a separate entity, and whether it succeeds or not shouldn’t affect the homeowners.  If home buyers  wish to purchase a home that overlooks the 8th hole, fine.  If that course eventually fails, then they get to overlook nature.  They should know that going into their purchase of a home.  The 8th hole could end up being a tree farm – live with it or sell to a tree hugger.  Personally, I’d rather have trees!

Now, to my point:  Golf courses should be designed with the environment foremost in mind.  With our current water shortages and climate change (and yes, global warming is happening and humans are largely responsible, regardless of what your politicians - Cliff Stearns for one, would have you believe), golf courses and sod nurseries are a huge detriment.  However, with proper design and management, golf courses can be an enhancement to our life as we know it.  Whether it succeeds as a lucrative business or not is up to the owner/manager.  If it affects my way of life by sucking up too much water and putting even more chemicals into our water supply, then I object.   

Thanks,
JudyB

Sunflower,

Thanks for jumping in.  What does global warming (something that you and master al can't prove or quit contributing to) have to do with golf courses, i've played golf but maybe i'm not as up to date on the global warming affect?  Do you have any ideas on how golf courses could be more environmentally sound? Lastly, and this is way of topic of the qol like most of the threads here so thought it might be appropriate, how do we run out of water?

Don't rely upon me or anyone else to personally give you information.  It is out there and to just connect my comments to Al Gore is not only ignorant, but admitting that you are incapable of learning what's really happening. 

Here's a link as to how golf courses could be designed to be environmentally friendly. 

http://www.goodmoney.com/golf.htm, http://www.lbegolfcoursedesign.com/environment.html, http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2005/1003-green_and_clean.htm

If you browse "environmental golf courses" a plethora of sites will be available to enhance your education.

Here are some links as to the current water situation in the Southeast and our own county and NE Fl. 

http://www.sjrwmd.com/, http://www.stjohnsriverkeeper.org/

Do you not read before you "jump in"?  Have you not been paying attention to the  events happening in your state and community?  Please stop and think before you challenge me and anyone else who is aware of current events.  Btw - that used to be a subject when I was in school.  It would be a good thing for you all to be aware of what's happening in your neighborhood before you jump in with ignorance.

Here is another global warming link only this link calls it a myth. Now folks can check out both sides of the topic

 www.ourcivilisation.com/aginatur/moregw.htm - 4k

TRUTHHURTS

i wasn't challenging you or trying to make any kind of offense, just simply asking some questions about your thread,  yes i payattentin to current events, but usuallynot on things that are so stupid as loal warming and golf course enviornmental threats, which is why your thread interested me, i really wanted your opinions not that of someone else but, thank you for the links and thank you for blowing everything way out of proportion 

The global average air temperature near the Earth's surface rose 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the hundred years ending in 2005. (Source Wikipedia).  So, global warming probably can be proven.

Foxx writes:

 yes i payattentin to current events, but usuallynot on things that are so stupid as loal warming and golf course enviornmental threats,

i figured that would come back an bite me right after i posted the comment, i too give up on my typing abilities, please no links on typing abilities

Just thought I would add some more links for Foxx to ponder:

http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2008/03/04/weather-channel-founder-sue-al-gore-expose-global-warming-fraud

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/02/25/lorne-gunter-welcome-to-the-new-ice-age.aspx

Is it hot or cold? I give up too.

I don't know whether it's hot or cold, it was rather cold at 5 am this morning.  As far as global warming, yes the globe warmed up (1.33 ± 0.32 °F), now i'm no scientist, but...................Big Whoop! i say we all give up on this subject, but don't give to this global warming blah blah blah.