Is It Really That Bad?

I can not claim to be an expert on education in Ameica or even Florida. I do substitute teach but it's more of a stop gap baby sitting job. From what I have seen, despite the horror stories in the press, we have about the same ratio of willing learners to disruptive students as compared to my childhood when the biggest problem of disobedience was chewing gum in class. Keep in mind I can only address what I have experienced in the Duval County schools. It would be better, in my opinion, if parents took more of an interest in their children's education. As I have stated before, if the parents were to shoulder all the cost of a good education and not rely on a socialistic funding program as we have, the cost alone would motivate these parents to want to get ther money's worth out of their kids in better grades.

Yes, in some schools things can be more dangerous but I look to the ratios. I do believe things really need improvement in many of the poorer neighborhoods. One thing I was surprised about was many classes that do have text books do not allow the students to take them home. It pretty much rules out homework. I don't get that but this is what I have seen.

Another comment is that the school lessons on a daily basis seem to be pretty minimal. At least according to those lesson plans I have been left to utilize. I am comparing them to when I was in school.

When I was in school we stayed put in one class with one teacher through the sixth grade. Junior high school was when we began to circulate from class to class for each subject. Today they are up and about from third grade on. I don't think this is a good idea but that's just my opinion.

Carl Hiaasen,as usual, nails many of the problems superbly.  Everything he has said about financing is true and a disgrace for Florida. Yet despite all the obstacles our legislature has placed in front of these kids, most of them excel with a demeanor that tells me they will make successes out of their lives.

On this blog alone we can see the results of those who were underachievers in school due to their obvious lack of attention while in school such as the below average communicator , Spot. He must be a terrible disappointment to his family. But this is not the fault of the teachers. Teachers provide the tools of success their students need, in many cases, out of their own pockets. It is up to the students to use them. Most do.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Lily,

Thank you for the quick response.  Your experience in the school system adds credence to your comments.  I would agree with your comments.  It has been an age old complaint that parents take more interest.  But even as a non parent, I have to temper that philosophy with the reality that in today's economy, barring greed, it has to be difficult, at best.

Re reading your comments, I am reminded of so many comments that mirror yours.  There are so many factors involved, it would be like attempting to fix a car engine or a watch, while it is still running.  A daunting task, at best.

I don't understand why textbooks are not allowed to be taken home.  Once again, I am going to be 59 years old & was raised in a Catholic parochial school system in grade & high school.  We had to buy our books, got to sell them after the school year.  but we HAD to take them home for the 2 to 4 hours of homework we had.  I realise that this is another subject for discussion.  I just can't understand how a student can learn if he/she does not have access to the books upon which that learning is based.

I don't know anything @ Mr. Hiaasen.  I monitor the news outlets on subjects that interest me.  Education is one & his article came up on my radar.  But I loved it.  Is he well known in Fl.?

I won't condemn some bloggers on grammar or spelling.  I'm prepared to give them the benefit of doubt.  Maybe they are not adept at typing or are new on computers.  Personally, on this blog, as I do on any that I think might be considered long, I type it up on "WORD" first, do the editing, spell check etc., then do a copy & paste.  I thank my wife for showing me the light on that process.  But I do see your point.  On the other hand, I would rather see a person exhibit poor grammar & some mis spelling & give them a "Mulligan," if for no other reason that there is another person out there who is interested in a topic & is willing to jump through the hoops to make a difference.  They may have a good idea or two, just like us, so who cares @ the spelling?  Like all of us, they'll learn.  Perhaps in time, we'll learn from them.  I'll not waste an opportunity to learn.

I've always maintained that the most underpaid people are teachers, cops, firefighters/ rescuers docs, nurses & scientists.  Where the hell would the rest of us ingrates be without them?  Once again, thanks.  JATFUR.

RichK

It seems to me that somewhere along the line we lost track of making students actually learn something.

Somewhere in the 70s we came up with all the feel good stuff about not holding a student back because it could traumatize them socially. Then it seems we completely changed the way we teach reading and writing.

I have a brother and a sister that graduated in 1969 (5 years behind me). They and I received an excellent education at the same school. I also have a brother and a sister that graduated in 1974 and 1979. They attended the same school the rest of us did. The difference is that when they graduated they were and remain, functionally illiterate. That is, they can't read and write beyond the 5th grade level.

It's not the spelling or even the grammar. Heck if it wasn't for 'spell check' I'd be lost. I'm not talking about things like the difference between; there, they're and their; or when to either/or instead of neither/nor. It's the ability to express an intelligent thought with some semblance of clarity that is the issue.

It's true that parents can encourage and should, but the bottom line is if the children refuse to help themselves then there is no help. In any classroom there are two full time jobs. It is the teacher's job to teach. It is the student's job to learn. I think that most teachers are doing their job. I'm not sure that in some schools there are many students doing theirs.

Mike Heemer

I am really surprised you have never heard of Carl Hiaasen, Rich. He's been a famous thriller writer for years. Most of his novels feature bad guys who threaten not only the environment but our Florida way of life. He is a native of Maimi. He also has a weekly column for the Miami Herald and I believe from the speech I attended of his that he must be a Libertarian. He is also a big environmentalist. He really hates Disneyworld and all it stands for. His characters are unbelievably unique. The criminals especially. One such book had a pair of militia wannabes who were extremely racist. The quirk to the leader was that his parents did not tolerate racism and so beat him every time he used racial slurs. As a result, he is the only racist on record in popular fiction that can not even say the N-word. Hiaasen has a delightfully quirky sense of humor and there are parts where one roars out loud at the antics. Of all his novels only two have been turned into movies, neither of which was done very well. Strip Tease with Demi Moore (read the book, it is great) and Hoot, done for the teen audience. Curiously, the movie followed the book exactly but where the book was extremely charming, the movie's pacing was dolorous. It's the first time I have seen a movie fail in spite of it's not veering from the book.

At any rate, as a voracious reader, I can recommend his novels highly, especially Stormy Weather and Lucky You. Those are my all time favorite two.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Rick I wrote about some of the education problems identified in a report by Cornerstone Revisited that was on the Fl Chamber website in a blog dated 12/30/07.

Here's a copy and paste from the blog Large Property Owners Responsibility:

While I am talking about the Chamber. The Fl Chamber with The New Cornerstone Foundation report that was recently released summed up, would say Florida can't thrive with its current work force.

The report identifies specific problems which are failing infrastructuse in Florida's urban area, the deficiencies in the State's education system, the lack of venture or research capital for new businesses and expansion.

Florida has lost its claim to a low cost of living long ago.

The housing cost have rocketed in the past 5 years. However the recent downturn in home sales could help correct the problem but Florida is very unlikly to return to the days when housing was considered cheap. In many parts of the State, cost of living top national averages. Yet per captia income still lags below the national benchmarks.

Florida has added jobs at a good clip- 1 million new jobs since 2000. But the heftiest growth has occurred in areas that are non-sustainable (construction) or traditionally low-paying service jobs.

Florida can offer a pool of 9 million workers, but most of those don't have the skills needed to attract high-paying, high tech employers. The need for change is obvious. More than 15 percent of Florida's workforce lacks a high-school diploma, and the state graduation rate ranks 46th amoung the 50 states. Nearly 75% of the workers don't have college degrees. Florida ranks a dismal 48th in the number of doctoral degrees in engineering and sciences.

Other states tackled the challenge of converting to a high-tech economy by pouring resources into educational systems, making long-term commitments to build research capacity at universities and improve the public education system. Florida has paid lip service to those goals, but the report shows the follow-through has been sadly lacking.

Instead of the Chamber using its clout to push this report and its progessive agenda. It would rather agitate the citizens pushing against initiatives such as HTD or protecting special interest tax breaks.

Floridians can take up the cause by asking state candidates what they intend to do to give our families the best chance of growing up in a strong thriving economy. This report provides much of the ammunition we need to demand it.

You can find and read the New Cornerstone Revisited report at www.flchamber.com

Everybody should read the report by Cornerstone. I would say Carl Hiaasen is right on target. 

Trying to pick at what is wrong with the school system is like finding the needle in the haystack, so many variables to consider.  Florida has always been and probably always will be a tourist driven economy, and perhaps that is part of where the problem lies.  When you depend so highly on tourism then you need alot of "service" type jobs to support those tourists.

I can't help but think there is just "too much" being taught, basics have gone to the wayside for other things.  Extra curricular activities have gone from learning the valuable lesson of working as a team for the greater good into full out competition where it's no longer about the journey but all about winning. 

I go back to my youngest, she got involved in music in Jr High and wanted to continue to play in High School.  However High School Band is now a stepping stone to a career in music and unless you are willing to let it completely take over your life they don't want you in it.  It's now all about competition, winning awards for a future resume and nothing more. 

Now you have prizes being used as bait for FCats, what happened to doing a good job for the satisfaction of a job well done? 

Schools themselves are enormous anymore.  The High School I went to over 30yrs ago I knew every kid in the entire school and they knew me.  My girls tell me the school they go to is so crowded that if you fall between classes you can get trampled from all the students rushing to get to their next class. 

I'm just glad I have only two more years left to deal with the Public School System and then I'm finished! 

Rich I agree with you, the people who are most vital are sorely underpaid and under appreciated.  I always enjoyed school and learning, but then again I grew up in an era and area where there wasn't a whole lot to do otherwise. 

I think money talks and all else walks

When I was a child in another region of the country, it took a viilage to raise a child. times have changed drastically. The schools when I was a child would take kids out on educational trips to places like industry manufacturing plants , historical sites, cultural events, ect. These were paid for by the tax payers. There are no Florida state taxes and the citizens dont want them either. The buildings were the childeren attended school at were not shot gun shacks with about as much room as a ten man tent. The childeren had respect for their elders, and teachers, and school programs were plentiful.

We all want more and better, but at the end of the day it comes down to the allmighty dollar.

TRUTHHURTS

With all due respect to the "viilage(SP) theory, you and Hillary seem to want to rely upon the quantity over quality in pinpointing what it takes to raise a kid with the proper respect for teachers and education. It is never about responsibility or accountability. It is easier to blame someone or something else. It all starts at home. It is easy for a "nonparent" to blame the economy for causing parents to lack the time to show an interest in their children's education, but those of us who have had and still have children going through the public school system and spending time substituting at a High School in Clay, I think I can honestly say that parental involvement is necessary and it has been and still is sorely lacking. You just have to look at the number of single parent households or two wage earner households. It is so easy for one of those parents to justify that it is the school system's responsibility to take care of their kids. I am not saying that all of the other factors mentioned are not applicable, because they all have some impact, but when a kid comes to school with no respect for the school or the teacher and is keenly aware that the teachers do not have any real disciplinary hammer to force the student to do any work in class or make a parent get involved, the kids work the system to their advantage. I see it all the time at school. At the same time, I also see the kids who have parents who obviously care and stay involved and those are the ones who stay motivated to work and achieve good grades and want to go to college to further their education. Most of them tell me that there are consequences at home if they do not get good grades while the ones who dont get good grades admit that their parent(s) either dont know, dont ask or dont care, so they dont either.

Kurt M

Finder,

Your version has been repeated thousands, probably millions of times.  The literacy rate in this country is well known & should be considered a national shame.  I use two different versions of spell check.  One is the button & the other is the dictionary on the shelf @ a foot above the screen.  Why I still sometimes get it wrong is beyond me.  I guess it's the dunderhead factor rearing its ugly head.

I agree with your statements on jobs.

Lily,

I guess the reason I've never heard of Mr. Hiaasen is because I don't read thrillers.  I came across his article on one of my news sources.  I have to admit, I like his style.

Angela,

Thanks for the added info.  I must agree on a state & national level.  I have to think that the problems with education in the state & country are getting worse to warrant the # of stories I've been reading lately.  Today, the big news is the session in the capitol @ science standards.  If I were a neutral observer in another state, my first question would be to ask why are they having this kind of discussion in the first place.  Whether it's Christian evangelicals, Shintoist's Bhudists, or Latter Day Saints, they have no official standing or authoritative power in the matter just as a group of nuclear phycisists would have no standing in having a say in the decision making process of religious orthodoxy of any religious group.  This should be the sole domain of the Department of Educational standards & science.  After living here for over 20 years, I can fully understand the views of other people about Florida & other states like it.  And it's not a good view.

Marsha,

Like Finder, your statements have been echoed many times.  Basics, among others, seem to have been relegated to the back of the class.  It shows in low literacy rates & poor knowlege in math, science, geography, history & in basic thinking processes.  It seems readily apparent that some where along the line, the art & science of teaching students rational, critical thinking has all but disappeared.  I see it on a daily basis when I read or watch a story on the news.

I went to a high school big enough so that I didn't know every one personally, but still knew of them.

I'm not ready to put the blame of Florida's status as a tourist state needing many service jobs.  That should not preclude a good educational system.

Truth,

It's an age old story & not just in Florida.  People want first class services but refuse to pay for them.  That's where money talks, so you are absolutely right.

USMA72,

I would disagree with one aspect.  It is @ responsibility & accountability & it should start with the parents.  They were the ones who made a unilateral decision to bring another life on this planet.  It is therefore totally within their duty to be responsible & accountable for the upbringing of that child.  It is the responsibility of society to offer the best education possible for that child while looking to the future.  In that light, since it is recognised that a good child should become a good student then a good citizen, various fields & degrees of responsibility fall upon various members of society.  In the end, it is for the greater good of society in general to help produce that good citizen.  But it does & must start with the parents.  JATFUR.

RichK

...and I know this is only an adjunct to the the main thread but the question was asked. If you don't care for thrillers, even the funny ones Hiaasen writes, pick up one of his non-fiction books called Paradise Screwed. It's a collection of many of his opinion columns from the Herald. You will get a very good insight into the man and his beliefs. I consider him a treasure for Florida. Now... back to our regularly scheduled thread. :>)

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Lily,

Sorry, just couldn't resist.  I loved Columbo & Peter Falk.  Thanks for the info on Hiaasen.  I'll give it a try.

RichK

Bloggers,

I thought this a timely read: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-miket1908feb19,0,5728199.column

Karen Lake

That was certainly intereesting reading. Thank you Karen. One doesn't come across positive stories on the state of our schools these days too often. I certainly hope it's true. I do have to object to one point. At the end he says we should not graduate students who can not do math or reading at a tenth grade level. I think that is a foolish view point. It summarily dispenses with the need to continue onto junior and senior years. Graduate students should be able to do 12th grade work. I have read many other articles bemoaning the need for so many college freshmen to take remedial English and Math courses just to reach the lowest rung on the college ladder.

Other than that, any little ray of hope is good. I do believe the critical thinking approach to learning is a better way of ingraining knowledge over the teaching to the FCAT approach because it makes learning much more fun than merely memorizing dull facts and figures.  But that's just me.

Rich, I too was a huge fan of the dear Lt. Columbo.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Thankfully, my kids are through school - 1 still at UNF - and now it's time for the grandkids.  I really stepped into a pile on this issue a few months ago.  No secret, I'm an old school kinda guy.  Big on discipline and respect for authority, especially at school.

I think the biggest problem is that the social pendulum has swung to the far left in the personal responsibility and self-discipline category.  IMHO, kids are pampered way too much, and parents have developed a huge guilt complex if their poor baby doesn't get all that he/she wants - latest video game, latest tech gadget, new clothes, new car, etc. all because "Chloe has one".  Spare me.  You want it - get a job and buy it.  I think USMA72 has it right - it all starts at home.

The good thing is, the job market has correction ability.  Be a dummy - get paid like a dummy - have a life like a dummy.  I have faith that enough people want to live a decent life and provide for their family that somehow, someway they will get an education and work themselves into a decent job.  If not - well, we always need laborers and people to work at McDonald's.  People must want something out of life.  Of my 3 kids, only 1 went past a couple of semesters of college.  The youngest.  The one I spent the least amount of time harassing about his school work - I didn't have to.  He did it on his own.  He applied for college on his own (unlike the first 2 that I hand walked through the process), arranged his own financing (unlike the first 2 that I had to stroke checks for), and he continues to this day (unlike the first 2 who baled after a couple of fruitless semesters).  He did it because he wanted to, not because I tried to make him.  "You can lead a horse to water . . . "

Finder - I graduated in '79 and managed to get past "functionally illiterate".  I don't think the '70's is your siblings problem.  Maybe it was too much time out in the parking lot before school.  (Just kidding of course.)

I think we are lucky in Clay County - apparently we have a good school system.  I'm glad I don't have to deal with Duval County - God Bless you Lily for taking on the task.

Having said all that, we just registered my oldest grandson at a local private school for his first year in school.

Florida encourages more students to take the AP exams than any other state. If you take our population and extrapolate the number of students that take the exam, you will of course find we rank high. The issue is that many of our students must take the AP exam because they are forced to take the AP classes. It doesn't matter if they pass them or not, they still get high school credit and a diploma. The dual enrollment kids are the real gems. They take classes at the college level, however, if they don't pass them, they don't get high school credit ie, no graduation. Those are the true people who don't get the attention. Just ask some of your AP teachers how many students are in their classes that should not be. You can take a statistic and play with the data in any manner. It still speaks well of Florida, however. Statistics are such wonderful things, you can manipulate them any way you want, especially for a newspaper story. But, I am glad to get some positive PR. BTW one of the best kept secrets of private schools is the huge number of substance abusers that attend those schools. Check Bartram, Bolles, Episcopal, or SJ.

still on the island, and not going away!  The Michael Savage of Clay County.

Islander,

I coordinate the high school dual enrollment program for our community college. I agree, there are some subtle nuances between AP and dual enrollment that beg to be aired.

1) FCAT scores are used to recruit students into AP classes.

2) Students can take AP classes for the entire year and not pass the test at the end of the year. Some students, who don't test well under timed conditions probably shouldn't consider AP coursework.

3) Four-year institutions (UF specifically) rank AP classes a half-point higher than high school dual enrollment - even if you don't pass the test and earn college credit. They like to see a student attempt an AP course.

4) Understand, you may earn 3-8 college credits through an AP test, but you do not establish a GPA through AP exams. Consequently, if an institution requires a C or better in an English Gordon Rule class (a course with a State 1,500 word essay requirement), a student cannot take an expanded list of coursework in the third English class. Subtle, yes. But there, nonetheless.

5) Articulation agreements dictate that in order to dual enroll, a student must: A) be 16 years of age, a junior or senior in high school; and B) have a GPA of 3.0 or greater and test into college level work through the SAT, ACT or CPT entrance exams.

Having shared all that, at a school the size of Keystone Heights High School, the population eligible for dual enrollment is about 150-160 students. Of that, over 60 students are now dual enrolled in at least one class and many others as much as 4-5 classes.

It's free college tuition. The Clay County School District pays for books.

Students like their independence. They like setting their own schedule around work and other activities. They like the college setting. We treat them as college students because they have shown an intellectual ability to learn at a college level.

This spring, we graduate from our center our first high school student with a two-year degree before he earns his high school diploma. How cool is that?

The program sells itself. I encourage as many students as possible to take advantage of the program based on their education goals.

Karen Lake

The following link is to an article on Common Dreams - a daily "must read" for me and my husband.  It is a website containing articles of information, wisdom, humor, and sometimes 'shock' by  authors you don't get to read in the daily print publications and by some who are well known.  One of my favorites is Chris Cooper - a curmudgeon from Maine - the male version of our Lily. 

This link I'm providing is written by a teacher,  and Lily's comment, "The Kids are All Right", prompted me to put it up on the blog for anyone who may be interested in what some of the younger generation are thinking and doing.  http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/02/20/7172/

If you're interested in other articles on the website, just click on the HOME tab.  There are also comments posted by readers - some very informative, some not so...

Thanks,
JudyB

I have often thought that KHHS is one of the best kept secrets of Clay county.  The statistics Key gave for KHHS dual enrollment students are outstanding.  That's like getting an Associate degree for free.  I don't think many parents realize the financial savings of having their student use dual enrollment.

Islander,

I couldn't agree with you more. KHHS scores within 3-4 points of students at Fleming Island. I've heard it said (facetiously) that KHHS is the only public-private school in the county. We're not but we're pretty secluded out here. The difference is, many parents place a lot of importance on education. A significant contigency of our parents are professionals and there is a higher expectation in the home which is huge. No, we're not without our problems. No high school is and I've been honest in many blogs about competency scores among all Clay County high schools.

We've got a lot of homegrown teachers and administrators who've earned their degrees and have come back to our community to teach the next three generations of children. That says a lot about Keystone.

My hat is off to teachers. The demands are many and the needs are out of this world...

Key -

congrats on your great work with the kids at high schools and the community college.  There is definitely a special place in heaven for anybody who works with high schoolers! 

My only comment on the dual enrollment is -

Are we making our kids grow up too fast?  Are they ready to graduate from high school with an A.S. or A.A. degree?  Years ago some medical schools had an accelerated program (3+3) to churn out doctors.  What they did was churn out highly educated, immature and socially inept M.D.s. 

Same goes for some of the dual enrollment kids - the concept is absolutely fantastic and honorable, but we have to be careful about the consequences.  Some 15 years seem more than ready to tackle college algebra, then end up with a D which follows them on their lifelong college transcript.  Another point, and probably more important, is that we, i.e. "older generations" often complain about how fast kids grow up these days.  My concern is dual enrollment is making that even faster and most kids are just not ready to enter college as a Junior at 17 years old.    

Just my thoughts - again, a fantastic program but like most programs that seem "to good to be true,"  folks should tread with caution.

I am glad there are programs out there available for those who have a drive and ability to take such things on.  Some want it while others maybe pushed by over zealous parents.  I know that my Grandson, if not challenged and kept busy actually can go through behavior problems. He's so far ahead of his grade level he really needs to be challenged and he's a happier boy when he is. 

I think your question about kids growing up too fast is a valid one.  It's not all about the intellectual capacity, the emotional growth or maturity should be in balance. 

My youngest daugher has a friend in Gainesville doing the whole dual enrollment and he works, at 17yrs of age.  He's accomplishing alot but when you put him in a roomful of people he won't speak, he won't interact, he withdraws. Even when he is just hanging out with Kate his ability to carry on simple conversation or lack thereof is frustrating for her at times.  Would he be better off focusing on his socialization skills, don't know but it's certainly food for thought. 

CCC-

You're absolutely right. Dual enrollment - like AP courses - are not for everyone. Typically, we get the students who are the cream of the crop. There are no behavioral or attendance problems with these students and they tend to be more emotionally mature because they've been focused on academics for a long time.

What impresses me CCC, is the ownership I see in students putting together their own education plan: Adding rigor through dual enrollment, AP courses, and Florida Virtual School...there are a lot more options today than ever before.

I understand your concerns. I think they're valid. Earning a D will drop students from the program. A "D" in a college course is weighted as a "C" on a high school transcript. In three years, I've only had two students who have been disqualified. More often than not, I suggest students withdraw and take the W on a transcript, show they attempted the course and preserve their dual enrollment status. By the same token, in the same time period, I've seen one student graduate with an AA before their high school diploma. It's a very difficult goal to accomplish.

I think in the high stakes game of college admittance, we encourage students to press too hard, too fast. It's only going to get tougher due to less state funding...

Fellow Bloggers,

I'd like to give a Big congratulations & thanks to all who have contributed to this subject.  National & state figures might be good for an overall picture, but individual, first hand experience tends to fill in the gaps.  Is there still much work to be done?  Yes.  But with information like this, we can start to see where the progress is & where we need to progress.  Once again, thanks to all.

RichK