Discussion of Blog Dynamics

Ok, since no one wants to jump in, let me start with a few of the positive things that I have seen from our newest commissioners. A few months a go, the Planning commission voted to allow a rule that would limit a landowners right to leave property to his heirs, it was called the "Heir's Exemption". A number of long term residents in the western and southern part of the county could see that eleminating their ability to leave their children land to build on. Onother action at the same time was the RV restrictions that would not allow anyone to keep their RV plugged in to run the refigerator, etc.. The Planning Commission voted against that effort. When both of these things came before the BCC, on eof our newest commissioners (another Sandhill scrub dweller) took both of these efforts on, brought together a number of residents who were directly effected and came up with a solution that addressed the issues that needed to be addressed without destroying family traditions and heritage. These efforts were based on community involvement. Now to some in the eastern part of the county, these may not seem like big issues, but I can tell you they were like an arrow to the hearts of longterm county residents and this commissioner mitigated the impact without placing burdens on the rest of the county.

Another effort was the Highlands DRI. For those who don't knw this is a DRI in the western end of CR-218. It is a very large community similar to the Saratogy Sprongs DRI that some on this blog seem particularly incensed about. Another of our newest commissioners spent upwards of half an hour outlining all the reasons why this DRi should not be submitted to DCA for further review,a fter his dissertation, the other newest commissioner then amended his testamony with her own reasons and starte by stating that this "DRI was her own backyard", so she knew where of she spoke. Although they both provided very compeeling reasons for this DRI not to be transmitted to the DCA, they were outvoted 3 to 2.

So, tell me, what evil things have these two individuals done that would warrant the venomous attacks I see on here? Inquiring minds want to know.

Can you elaborate on your last sentence, what "newest ones" are you referring to?  Perhaps if you expand on what specific rancor you're talking about it would help.

Are you referring to the blogs about the Sheriff?

I agree that if you're trying to understand something it is fine to question.  Would you also not agree that in the asking of those questions the writer can can either make it sound like a question, or an innuendo?  I think you spoke about something along these similar lines when you spoke about how Engineers communicate.

So far as local issues my rancor is with two. 

1. I agree with Angela on a ten yr moratorium on anything that isn't already in the pipeline.  We cannot solve the issues of mismanaged growth if we don't stop adding to the problem.  I don't want to stop growth, I just want to get what is already wrong fixed and we can't do that if we go forward like we have been.

2. I am solidly opposed to any tapping of the St Johns River to support future growth in the center of the state.  Remember that old commercial, I think it was for Parkay where the tag line was "Don't fool with Mother Nature" 

They fooled with Mother Nature in New Orleans, building where they shouldn't have, filled where they shouldn't have. 

If we need industry in the state then there should be some incentives put out there for the desailiation plants.  Two birds, one stone.

Because of the above issues is why I've supported the HTD petition, at the moment it's the only solution not full of loopholes built in to benefit those who have benefitted too much for too long. 

I have progressed over the last year and really do try to keep it about the issues and not the people.  I figure my displeasure with individuals in general is best kept in the voting booth.

I apologize if this is not what you had in mind for this thread.  Perhaps with a little more direction I can comment specifically to what you're getting at.

CSD being new to the blogs is sometimes a disadvantage. All of these issues have been discussed on here before.

The MSTU and having them from Marion County come up to discuss that issue. The Heirs Exemption where she took a leading roll. She was against the Highlands DRI which I was happy to see a person take a stand on a bad idea. I have blogged those on here before and have stated that I was impressed with her stance. Commissioner Conkey read from a prepared statement that I thought was awesome and well researched about the Highlands DRI.

I think our EAR (Evaluation and Appraisal Report) report identified some areas of concern. Our EAR report is a document released every 7 years. It is probably one of the most important documents that gauge our growth issues. How well we have done or not done. Wonder if we could get the Commissioners to do a workshop on just the EAR's report what was in it and what changes they are making. Tell the citizens about their report card.

I was well aware that Bush, Bradley, and Rutledge voted for the very bad idea presented by the Highlands DRI. Bad idea then and still a bad idea.

I support the moratorium because if you did research such as I have done we have building slated until almost 2020 in the pipelines now. I am talking probably 100K acres along Hwy 16 without the Beltway. Enough is enough until we get some kind of handle on the direction the county as a whole wants to go we need to take a breather. I certainly don't think you throw gasoline on a fire to help put it out. I would support a 5 year moratoruim if they would agree.

I will say I wasn't happy with their votes of the Kingsley Lake issues and the building of 70 to 90 homes out there.

What are you looking for from the bloggers?

Good start. I couldn't agree with you more on both issues, as a matter of fact, I will take it even further, I have been observing a number of agencies and people in the Gov. and I have seen a couple of instances where a common sense approach to "Managing Growth" seems to have gained some roots. I have seen writings by some of the staff in the Planning department and supported by some of the members of the Planning Commission and the Board of County Commissioners that stated; the county should cease any action that can add "Rooftops" to the county until after the EAR Based Amendments to the Comp. plan have been completed. My understanding of this position is; we do not know what the people of the county want built into the revisions of the comp. plan until the process is completed, so don't do anything until we know. This is common sense and has been stated by the same two commissioners I referenced earlier. I don't want to use their names and give them free publicity, but if someone is genuinely interested, it is easy to research the public records, or even better yet, watch the BCC on television or go to the meetings, if you can. The Planning and Ordinances are debated and ruled on the second BCC meeting of the month @ 7:00. Now for balance let me state that I have also been disappointed by a couple of things these same commissioners have ruled on, specifically the Kingsley Lake development and I can't recall the other right now.

I have heard the Reinhold Corp. name used in vain here a number of times and often referred to as "Developers". I decided to try to discover what evil deeds they had perpetrated, I couldn't find any, as a matter of fact, the only "Development" I have found they have intitiated is the Saratoga Springs DRI, what am I missing?

I see your support of angela and I agree, I think her involvement here is definitely needed, but as I keep saying, tell me why you are upset and what can we do to resolve the problem. There is a very old saying "Your enemies, are my enemies" but first I need to know why they are your enemies. As I stated early on in my blogging experience, I am not one who will judge or label someone until I see, personally, the justification for that finding. So, enlighten me, I am like "the grasshopper at your feet" I need to be enlightened.

Angela,

Very good discussion!!! No diatribe about the evilness of all politicians, just a basic discussion about specific issues, now I am impressed!

Let me throw some more information into the mix, I have mentioned this before and it is public record so Angela has probably already read it: we have over 200% available housing opportunities in clay county right now. Now let me explain, that means that for every family in clay county there are two opportunities for residence. Now that is not necessarily rooftops, it can be plotted and undeveloped land or Agricultural land with a 1 house for 20 acres zoning. What this means is that no one in this county is unable to find a place to reside! Having said that, affordable housing is a critical issue in clay county. The SHIP program did some research last year (again Angela probably knows this data) and could find no, 0, zilch; stick or brick homes homes that would meet the criteria for starter homes for the entry level clay county citizens. Now, having made that statement, let me further state that all of the DRI's that I have researched have provisions for "Affordable Housing", I don't know what that means, but at least someone is paying "Lip Service" to the need.

Do we need a moratorium, yes, at least until the EAR Based amendments to the comp. plan are completed. Will this solve any of the problems we have discussed, I don't think so, but it will not make the situation worse. 

CSD,

I have blogged about the Saratoga Springs and their absolute refusal to include affordable housing and would need to set up an authority or the Ships (low to very low income) program to address those issues.

I think Thad Crowe who has left would support those statements. However this has been addressed on the blogs.

When a developer wants to put in houses that even the basic people police, fire, teachers who will be needed to support those additional families, can't afford to buy in there speaks volumes to me.

Maybe you should research Lampa and Black Creek, Peters Creek Business Park, Saratoga Springs should I keep going. I have blogged these before and if you research the blogs in the upper hand box you will see these have been addressed.

Let me describe my transition from a first time user who sees only disgruntled citizens and people looking for the Boogeyman under their beds, to an open, detailed discussion of facts, figures and public documents.

have seen Angela give credit to some politicians, provide me with more information and resources in my quest for information and asking me if she can assist me further.

I think I am seeing some hope for my involvement in these blogs. Although I would still like a very detailed point by point description of the indictments against everyone's evil politicians and developers. Specifically which commissioners are evil and why ( I can see you don't think that two are the "Resident Evil"), what about the others, I can see some reasons for not necessarily liking their actions, but I want to know what makes them evil. The developers, especially Reinhold's, I am still having a hard time understanding them as "Developers" as they haven't developed anything yet, what are their sins?

Why should we be blogging about what is right about government? After all we have the local newspapers and they never find anything wrong with the local government. So between the blogs and the newspaper I think we have a fair representation of the community. However I don't think the FBI shows up in a county that is wonderful just looking for something to do that day. Have you ever heard the statement if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Well we have alot about Clay County and our State government that's not right. Alot of us blog about those issues on here. You can blog too. You can toot your friends horn, you can disagree, offer another viewpoint or counterpoint even call people paranoid. You can debate the issues, provide solutions, offer insight, offer information, do research or just read. You make the call. This is an equal opportunity blog site. Join the fun or just read.

I have blogged an extensive history concerning some our developers/landowners. Sometimes it's best if I don't blog all the information I do have. I would just like to state some of the facts and provide a veiw point for the readers and bloggers. What you or they do with that information is at the sole discretion of the blogger or reader.

I have blogged an email where Mr. Myers was getting a meeting together with a few of his friends and some of our government to decide our future. Since you seem to have an interest in him particular. Maybe you could asked your friend to run for office and give the citizens a right to participate in our future, or should we just blame him for all that has gone wrong. Since he seems to want to direct our future from behind the scenes.

I have been looking in for months and I am going to get my feet wet in MCS.   Angela is correct.  There is a group that meets regularly  which includes Myers and they are arranging who they will put in what office, they are directing Clay County's future.  Check the campaign donations at www.clayelections.com.  You can figure out who the group is.  I have lived in clay most of my life and I think that Angela is right.   Clay County has just exchanged one set of good old boys for another with a whole lot more saavy and money.

I find your question very confusing. "...what about the others, I can see some reasons for not necessarily liking their actions, but I want to know what makes them evil."

It seems to me if an evil action is undertaken then the person acting is evil. How much simpler can it get? Specifically, to some of the commissioners, the wholesale rubberstamping of rampant development without the necessary infrastructure in place and paid for is an inherently evil and completely stupid act. Now we have several in our community looking to profit at the expense of our environment and wallets by clamoring for yet another unnecessary road project humorously referred to as The Outer Beltway. These few want to be paid handsomely for land they otherwise can not use and they want the innocent to pay for it. Then to add insult to injury they want to eliminate competition in crossing the river and as traditional highwaymen of yore are wont to do, will hold up commuters for even more money to the end of time. The supporters also disingenuously claim it will give relief to traffic problems on Rt 17 and Blanding Blvd. Curiously, the traffic problems were caused by the Commission (not specifically the current one but in general) in the first place. So as to trusting government employees with anything, I see that as completly fruitless. They cause the problems in most cases and then exacerbate the problems but they never improve things. Ever! 

Oddly enough, the editorial writers of the T-U who were so excited when Tommy Hazouri ran tolls out of Duval County, have now done a complete Romney on the issue and now join the chorus of Big Government in grasping still more money from the populace. They should be ashamed but I don't think the capability is hard wired into their DNA. It's a sad time for the taxpayer.  So, evil? Yes, I do believe anyone who sells out their neighbors for 30 pieces of silver (or in this case hundreds of thousands of pieces of silver)  is innately evil. Depending on who one supports, this may not satisfy in a definition of evil. After all, Ted Bundy really believed he was a nice guy. He just had an unfortunate way of relating to women.

I am sure this subject will come up again and I am also sure those who side with evil will be offended but not nearly offended as I am when I read about this worthless Beltway project. That is a belt that definitely needs cinching to the last notch, preferably around the FDOT's neck.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

I feel like I just got a data dump of proportions that would equate to taking a drink from a fire hose. Am I to believe that this county is so fragile that a few people meeting in an office somewhere can actually direct it's future? Who are these people? are they all developers? What are they wanting to do to clay county and is it something that the State's Attornay should investigate as a conspiracy?

Just so that you don't misunderstand, I am sincere, your passion would make one have visions of Al Capone or Al Quada conspiring against us. As for the beltway, as I have said, I am still a supporter, because I see it as the only solution to getting economic development in clay county. I am waiting anxiously for Mr. Engineer's proposal, he seems to be a man I can relate to, even if we are on different sides of an issue, he is sincere, direct, specific and non-punishing, the tokens of a good TQL/M effort. As for someone making money from this project or any other, this is after all a capitalistic society and we are surrounded by people everywhere making money off the efforts to improe our environment and address social issues, look at most of the "Charities" in the Combined Federal Campaign, there are a large number of people making huge salaries to run those organizations. I have an investment portfolio for my retirement, I am making money off Municipal Bonds, they could be bonds that are repaving our roads, does that make me a doer of evil deeds? Why do so many people hold anyone making money up for ridicule?

Scrub dweller if you are waiting on the State Attorney's Office you are backing up. They may be busy presently attempting to put some other innocent person like Chad Heins in jail for many years by surpressing evidence. No we are out here on our own in Clay County.

Original Message -----

From: Jack Myers To: Harold Rutledge ; Fritz.behring@co.clay.fl.us Cc: Michael Mayo ; Kirk Wendland ; Dale Wilson ; Frank Miller ; George Egan ; Nancy Keating ; Ray Avery ; Ray Jorgensen ; Ted McGowan ; Jim Horne ; David Robertson ; Barry Allred ; Diane Hutchings ; Kellie Jo Kilberg ; Renee Knight ; Jud Sapp ; Mark Butterworth Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 11:29 AMSubject: Informal Dinner Meeting

Hi Harold and Fritz,

On behalf of the people copied on this e-mail, I would like to invite you to join us for an informal dinner meeting at Winterbourne House, on the grounds of Club Continental, to discuss the County's  future.  Cocktails would be at 6:00 P.M. and dinner at 7:00 P.M. on either April 17 or April 25, 2007, whichever is convenient for you.  Please feel free to bring any other County staff people you feel are appropriate.  If you are available on both the 17th and 25th, we will select the date that the most people can attend.  This e-mail will also serve as an RSVP for those on the copied list to confirm if they are available on April 17, April 25, or on both dates. I will notify you of the final date as soon as I receive everyone’s response.  As everybody's schedule is tight, I would appreciate everyone responding to these two dates as soon as possible. 

Thanks.

Jack

You know that looks just like an ethic violation wonder who would investigate that matter. Does your name appear on the email scrub dweller. How about enlighten the bloggers. I certainly don't see my name up there. Since I live in Clay County why didn't we get to go and have dinner and cocktails and find out what other project we get to bend over for in Clay County.

Okay, please think of Roseann Roseannadanna from Saturday Night Live and let me say NEVER MIND. I had only figured out eight of those names from their campaign donations. That took me 2 days and 1 highlighter. One of the group is having a big fund raiser for One Manns opponent in the not too distant future. Watch the dollars roll in.  Who says money can't but elections happiness!

Angela,

I don't know how I missed being on the "Shortlist"!

Some of these people I recognize, Nancy Keating, she is the head of the old Clay County Association for the retarded and does a lot of good for the county. Renee Knight is the past Executive director of the Clay County Council on Aging, we all know who Dale Wilson, Harold Rutledge, Fritz Behring and Jim Horne are. Diane Hutchings is evidently getting in tight with the power brokers for her campaign, we will know where her alliances are.

As I have stated in the past, I usually withhold my judgements until I can see evil, this could be a simple gathering of people to discuss the outcome of loss of revenue from proposition 1, the Not-For-profits will see a significant impact from the loss of revenue and from what I can find, the Reinhold Corporation has a very large Not-For-Profit foundation that gives out thousands of dollars every year.

I have attended meetings similar to this with some of my scrub dwelling friends and family and we have talked about the future of the county. Nancy Keating has done worlds of good for the mentally and physically challenged in clay county and from what I can see, she didn't get rich. Renee Knight almost lived at the Green Cove headquarters of the Clay County Council on Aging (CCCOA) and I know she didn't get rich. So, is this an evil group of people, at least two of them are not from what I know of them.  

What did the others gain? I don't know them personally, although if the David Robertson is the Engineer I know, he is very involved in everything to do with transportation, but he may head up a Not-For-Profit. Maybe someone knows Diane Hutchings personally, all I know is that she is running for the at large commissioner seat, so that in itself, would make her suspect, judging from what I have learned here.

You must remember non-profit does not mean they don't make money. See I told you it may be better if I didn't blog all the information I know in Clay County.

Some of those that appear to give money get money back from the county (taxpayers) for their pet projects or maybe their wife's pet projects.

Besides who on the blogs would want to know if it's boxer or briefs. Bet I do.

Scrub, it was last March.  That is how all the  money is already flowing. The spigot has been on for some time. If my math holds true, there will be several six figure campaign accounts for commission seats.  Sadly, the CTLAC premise that single member districts would make it easier for the regular Joe to run does't hold true.  It looks like money talks. 

This is really rhetorical but: Why would a person spend or need 100K to get a 37K year job?

Inquring minds...........and clay voters should want to know.

Angela,

You made a turn that lost me there. Do you think that the CCAR and the Clay County Council on aging are making money for these two people?

Also I am having a hard time understanding why these two women, who have built agencies that help so many people would, after spending so much of their time and energy to assist the needy, then try to do things that could destroy the county.

I was with you until this, now I am not sure we are singing the same songs or at least are using the same sheet music.

I really don't see the evidence that this was a meeting of evil doers. If those two women had not been involved, you might have convinced me, but I know these women personally and they are two of the most caring and sharing women I know. Their lives have been dedicated to helping the needy at great sacrifice to themselves.

Here's Mike Mann's opponent soliciting the county's business while being a member of the CRC. Violations of the laws not in Clay County. Unjustly not trusting the government not in Clay County.

Get your head of the sand voters if you want change.

From:  Al DelaparteSent: Wed 5/3/2006 11:32 AMTo:  Fritz BehringCc:  Rich J. O'ConnellSubject:  Travis Cummings

Fritz:

Yesterday, Travis Cummings visited my office to solicit the county’s insurance business.  Though his name was familiar, I did not immediately recognize him as Chairman of the Charter Review Commission.

I am concerned that this may not be an appropriate time for us to enter into, or consider entering into, a relationship with Mr. Cummings, or his company.  I am inclined to diplomatically advise him of this via letter but in view of recent events in the county believe a higher level approach might be warranted.

Please also note that the yesterday’s email issue involved Pete Cummings.  I don’t know what, if any, relationship there is between them—other than the same last name—but I wanted to call this to your attention.

Please let me know if you require any additional information, or have any suggestions in resolving this matter.

Thanks--AL

Al Delaparte  CPCU

Risk Manager

Board of County Commissioners

Clay County

P.O. Box 1366

477 Houston Street

Clay County Administration Building

McGovern's over that at the CCCOA violating the law too. I blogged about it before. Wake up you need a dose of reality.

Angela,

Do you believe these two ladies I asked about are doing bad things. You talked about other people, but what about them? I am trying to find a connection in this group that would either indict the purpose or the participants. As long as these two women are involved, I am finding it hard to believe they are doing something bad. These are not "Power Brokers" they are both very simple, dedicated women, who are trying to do good for the community.

You are talking about Pat McGovern, what is his status in the CCCOA have to do with inappropriate or illegal activities, he isn't a county commissioner and the CCCOA is a Not-For-Profit, private agency.

In the gay community, many men date a woman so their friends and family do not figure out the truth. They call them Beards.  Maybe these two ladies, who from all I have ever heard run excellent agencies are the groups "beards" so they can look altruistic and the people of clay don't figure it out.   

It may be a stretch, but go to the election web site and pull each one up by contributors.  It is enlightening.  The next reporting period should be astounding if what the politicos are saying comes to pass.

Pat McGovern appeared before board on behalf of the CCCOA a private agency on Feb 20, 2007. Isn't there a law that says he can't for 2 years. If you can't find it I can show it to you. He was also permitted use of the staff for his private agency that to is against the law. Now why am I as a taxpayer paying for that too. After all, we already give them almost a million dollars of our tax money each year.

However, it's nice to know where you are coming from on the blogs. Now maybe all who reads can figure it out too. Where I stand and where you stand.

Maybe this is one of the reasons we have so many problems in the county. Beside I think the taxpayers, you know those who us pay the taxes, should have the right to decide our county's future. Sorry you can't see these issues.

But at least the taxpayers know where you stand. But then again I could be as you say paranoid with good documents to back by statements. You think.

Angela,

I am trying to follow your explanations, but you seem to be taking side trips I can't follow. I was asking about the two women in the invitation to Mr. Myers party and somehow I have been led me into a discussion about Pat McGovern and Travis Cummins.

So, let me ask a direct question: First, Is the CCCOA a bad agency that is doing something wrong? Second, Are the two women that were in the invitation list also bad people doing something wrong?

After you answer those questions, I will ask for more.

You assume that I am on a different side than you are, I am a pragmatist, but also an optimist, I expect real, concrete, specific evidence, but I start off feeling positive and it takes a lot to sway me, especially when dealing with quality people like these two ladies.

Maybe I will ask you a question. Why would 5 Commissioners allow illegal dumping, even voted on the Board Floor to allow this dumping. Did they intend to destroy the county and cost the taxpayers well over 9 million dollars? They did. Maybe they didn't think they would get caught. Wonder why they would do that little move. Looks to me like some people just aren't very smart and will participate in anything if they get lead by the right people.

Personally I don't know any of these people. So I can't comment on what motivates them. That should be them who anwsers those questions to the voters. Why were they at meeting and maybe they could produce some minutes and invite the public. Then we wouldn't have any question. Would we.

You didn't answer the question, it had nothing to do with illegal dumping, I believe everyone can see that was wrong. I was trying to establish if you considered CCCOA a bad agency. I give money to them every year, is my money going to a bad agency? I thought they were taking care of the aged and disabled elderly in the county, is that wrong, are they providing money for the Mr. Myers of the county to do bad things?

To follow your line of thought, if Mr. Myers, for what ever reason, invited you to his house for a party, are we to believe that you have crossed over to the dark side, even if you turned him down? Guilt by association doesn't work for me.

As for tax payers, I am a long time very high tax payer in this county, my wife and I both work and our kids are grown, you can imagine the taxes we pay.

I have to tell you now because you seem to be of the impression that most of the Not-For-Profits are scams I am not sure I want to volunteer for anything in this county, you might get my name and I would be on your watch list; sarcasm but still humor.

I would be a no show at his house. And maybe when we clean out all the riffraff then we will be a better county. After all what is a good ol boys system anyway. One I am tired of and would like Clay County to be all that it can be.

Maybe some now know they have been put on notice, we are watching, and will be blogging. As my father use to tell me don't do anything today that you wouldn't want to read about in the newspaper tomorrow. Especially since we are in a new technology age and it could appear on some blog before you get home.

Talking about the dynamics of blogging.

I don't want to detour into illegal dumping.  Let's stay on topic of a meeting that appears to be a flagrant attempt  to gain control of the county.  The easiest way to gain control is through helping people so they feel beholden to you. Helping people get elected might be real swell.  I don't think Angela s saying the agencies these women represent are bad or crooked.  Are you Angela?  I think they are being used by some much bigger fish that are on the list of attendees.  Scrub, your assessment of how caring and sharing these women are might be just the reason they were invited.  They don't have an agenda, what a great addition to a meeting of movers and shakers and not have have the real purpose of the group be in the forefront.

As I think about this, I am starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but if you look at the huge volumes of contributions, it sure makes you think something is fishy.

No our government isn't bad but people who misuse our government are. Agencies that do good work aren't bad either. But the people who misuse those agencies are.

Didn't one of our Commissioners make a statement when the FBI showed up in Clay County. When they said I think the FBI has much bigger fish to fry here than our landfill issues. I just can't remember which Commissioner said that, does anyone else?

As they say every picture tells a story, and some of these pictures I don't like.

I think that was Comm. Bush.  You know, the only Commissioner who did  not release his emails when requested because "I don't use the county email system because it is to  hard for me to access so I use my business email and that has priveledged client info so I will not release it..yada yada yada" Paraphrased of course.

I thought is was either Bush or McGovern and I think that was the 2 Commissioners that appeared before the Grand Jury too.

Angela,

Is the CCCOA a bad agency?

Are the two women who have taken the mentally disabled and the elderly out of their homes, gave them a place to go for fellowship and a way to get to the doctors and allow the CCAR citizens an opportunity to work for a living instead of living in an institution, bad people?

Beards? Now, I have learned something. I guess I have been very sheltered my whole life. The concept of people who work 16+ hours a day with the apparent intent to help the underpriviledged just to prop up a group of malicious manipulators of our counties future, is beyond anything I can comprehend.

Beards don't necessarily know that they are someone's cover.  Again, your asssement about the two women and their respective agencies by all acounts is spot on. 

Can you imagine that they might be being used? and really think they are among people who (like themselves) do have only good intentions? You have lived a sheltered life if you can't figure that there is a possibilty that they might be in the position to  be taken advantage of?

I don't think their work ethic and intention COULD be in question, their track record speaks for itself. But their guibilty is another matter. Smart, talented people have been exploited before.  It is just a theory which I hope is not true.  I hope all those in attendance had nothing but honorable intentions.  I also hope I win the lotto tomorrow.  

I am a sorry proofreader and speller.  I meant to spell gulibility

You must of missed it above.

No our government isn't bad but people who misuse our government are. Agencies that do good work aren't bad either. But the people who misuse those agencies are.

While I was looking wasn't McGovern one of the last people to see Ivey with the timbers from the Shands Pier that ended up in the dump and wrote a statement of their conversation? After they voted on the Board Floor to dump illegally. Sorry things just keep coming back to my mind about our fine good ol boys system in the county.

I think I should stop blogging now for the health of scrub dweller. You know some people just can't handle the truth about our county.

clayvoter we don't take points off for spelling. Every now and then we have the spelling police show up but they leave quickly.

I guess I have the rose colored glasses situation. In that meeting, I see some powerful or at least rich people, some government employees and some compassionate people meeting to discuss the future of the county. What about that makes it a conspiracy? I have seen Fritz Behring at such places as the "Old Farm" food give-away, are they in the conspiracy to? If I would take that line of thought, everyone who gets assistance from the Reinhold Foundation or the J.P. Hall foundation are co-conspiritors, you see my point?

I still have not heard what makes these influential people inherently evil. Should I suspect anyone who makes more money than I, and because my retirement portfolio invests in Municipal Bonds, am I a conspiritor?

I am still trying to understand the dynamics or the thought processes used to develop these revelations.

I need to stop too.  If I continue my tunnel vision about that meeting my mind may wander to more conspiracy thoughts and then I will actually think I can figure out who really killed JFK

This is my last response I promise. If these people want to decide our future then let all of them run for office and share their vision with the taxpayers because we will be funding their vision. Because I don't care how much money they have it will not be their's they are using. If pass indicators are predictions of future performance then we need to make some portfolio changes in the county. Do you understand that better?

I feel like the dog chasing his tail, the difference is, I was really beginning to think I could catch it, LOL

Thanks Angela for a good test of the logic drives in my grey matter, although I think they need to be reset now.

Let's recap what I have learned from this blog and what I think I now know about my county:

Most of the evil in clay county resides within the developers

If you want to solve most the ills of clay county, attack the developers

If you associate with the developers in any way you are inherently evil

If you are a Not-For-Profit you are suspect

If you are a Not-For-Profit that associates with developers you are either being duped by them or are covering your own evil deeds, you might be a beard.

The Outer Beltway is being built to make developers richer

If we quit building houses the developers will dry up and blow away and take all their evil with them

The problems we are facing now are the result of poor or no planning by clay county government or the developers or both

The transportation problems can be fixed if we quit building houses

We will be able to solve our lack of employment problems if we quit building houses and punish the developers

Anyone who doesn't understand the evil inherent in anyone called a developer is either one of them or being duped by them

Finally, this county is not "Going To Hell In A Handbasket", it is already there and the developers carried the basket.

There is no reason to explain the source of the evil in the developers, they are evil, therefore they are developers

I need to quit "The Voices" are telling me the developers are coming, LOL

It's sort of like The Wizard of Oz. When they pull back the curtain, it's just a bunch of good old boys in the back room cutting a deal. LOL

I don't know who this guy is, but he is the best thing to happen to these blogs since they started.  

Next we will be attending the Church of Scientology together. He must be one of those evil developers attempting to convince the bloggers he's good. Since he has convinced you. He only has 179,999 more of us in the county to sway to his side. I guess he like the odds.

I am an avid reader of the blogs learning and newcomer to the county. How can people commit crimes in this county and not be punished? This is why you have problems here. What an insult in his recap to a newcomer--The problems we are facing now are the result of poor or no planning by clay county government or the developers or both. Does that mean my family moving here is the cause of the problems in your county? What a welcome mat to the county!

Angela,

Thanks for the promotion to Developer, I am going to start waiting for the money to roll in.

Janie, what I meant and it appears that Angela and others are saying is: because the developers were allowed to "Develop" without the government planning to build infrastructure to accomodate the huge growth, we now have problems that are driving everyone crazy. What we have been debating is, how do you fix these problems? My tongue in cheek response was that all we need to do is remove or destroy the developers and the problems go away.

I am sure that Angela and the other people who are debating these issues do not dislike you, personally, they/we dislike what happened that brought you here without the necessary infrastructure to support your arrival, you are as much a victim as we all are. BTW, all of us on here came from somewhere else either personally or in previous generations.

Stan24, thanks for the compliment, but my entire purpose is to understand. I have too much of an analytical mind to apply the boogey man or developer answer to the source of our problems. I know from life experiences and my formal education that with the right kind of research you can support any contention and reinforce any bias: "Figures don't lie, but liers figure".

What I have seen ample evidence of here is that the resident evil and apparently the source of all of our problems is the developers. That is too simple for me to buy, I need more real data, not innuendo. The fact that so much evil is associated with these people has a tendency to destroy (my opinion only) the credibility of that premise.

Finally, a quote that I have heard used over the years that I really love: "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness". I believe that if we light the "candle" of solutions, not accusations, we will defeat the "darkness" of the evils of this county.

I am considering an attempt to meet this Mr. Myers that Angela and others are so upset with to see how he hides his horns in public. The problem with doing that is, I automatically become a developer or will become a pawn of the developers: guilt by association. I may still take the risk and I would encourage other free thinking people to do the same, don't fall into the fable of the "Emperor's New Clothes", look at the demon for yourself and see if he has the tail and horns we have heard about.

CSD,

Which way is it?  Your analytical mind wants facts and data. What good does that do when you believe "Figures don't lie but Liars Figure"?

The problem has so many causes, it's not just one or two.  The influences that cause the problems didn't arrive in the blink of an eye, it came over time, in incriments.  It is a result of action and lack of action, and most of it is cause and effect.  

Now whether you are focusing on Angela because she is so focused on the corruption end of it all or she just happens to be the one who has engaged you the most isn't clear.

You can call her paranoid or make any inference you like but she's consistent and she's persistent and the only goal I see by what she writes is that she wants honesty and accountability in goverment across the board.

She's blogged about alot of issues, I see no abnormal focus on developers. 

I don't consider myself an analytical person but it seems to me that little analogy you quoted would be more accurate if it read "Figures lie because Liars figure"

Who determines what set of records or statistics is true?  If you need details and data you have to either be open to them all, or realize you have a predetermined intent to seek out only the data that supports what you already think or feel. 

Thats why I like common sense and not making things anymore complicated then they have to be.  Otherwise you have too many variable variables.  

Marsha,

You have some very good points. I agree with your analysis of how we got here with all of these problems and you are right stating that it took a lot of actions and inactions, that is what I am having problems with; I see the majority of explainations aimed at the developers continuing evil plans. I haven't seen all of Angela's blogs before I started playing, but in the few days I have been on here, I have been unable to get her to show any real solutions and in less that three paragraphs she can turn a conversation around to either the developers are behind it, or you are being duped by the developers or you are here at the behest of the developers. As I have said; "It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness". I would like to see more candle lighting and less cursing.

What I was trying to say in my quote about liars and figures was, anyone can take data and information, manipulate it and present it out of context and it says something completely different. That means, don't take data presented by anyone as accurate or even current, do the research yourself. That is also why I am so uncertain about the electorate's ability to make informed decisions, the fact that so many people on here feel so sure that the developers are the cause and solution to our troubles, makes me feel uncertain.

I started this blog to understand why people say the things they do and what do they base those decisions on. I can understand the misgivings about the government's ability to do the right and proper thing for the citizens of this county, we have evidence all around us that is not the case. However to use a blanket indictment of all things and people government is not only unfair but very simplistic. We have seen evidence that a couple of the new commissionres have done some very good things for the county in terms of protecting our way of life, etc. Do they deserve to be put into the same indictments as George (I will  be in elected office forever) Bush.

Another thing I can't understand is; what have the developers done that is so evil? I keep asking that question, but I get nothing but critism of them because they are developers. Well, most of us are here because of the developers, they didn't seem evil then, what have they done subsequent to us intruding on the pristine landscape that was clay county.

As you have said Marsha, there is no simple reason for the ills that plague us, conversely, there are no simple solutions either.

Mr. Engineer, is still my salvation, I hope, for my continued involvment in this exercise.

The subject on this is Amendment 1.  The following is the criteria for consideration. It's not being presented as fact, there is a point just bear with me.

1. Republican Governor Charlie Crist was the biggest supporter for this Amendment. You don't have to agree with that premise but he's the head honcho in the State where individuals go.

2. CC now has a claim to fame on which to campaign forever, he's a friend of the people, looking out for the average Joe.  He cut your taxes.

3 There is class action litigation going which challenges the whole Save Our Homes program. It's based upon being "unconstitutional"  and provides for a whole lot of discretionary decisions. 

4. What if they get it overturned?  What if the language in this new amendment that isn't a long term solution anyway gets it overturned?

5. If it gets struck down it opens every homesteaded property in the state to an increase in taxes. How much, who knows. They're not going to make a refund to the owner of every non exempt property in the state so the only equitable solution will be some sort of increase on the property with the exemption.

6. Now here is what I want you to seriously consider.  Do you believe it is possible for Charlie Crist, or any other career politician to be a part of something that appears one way up front, but in the end has a whole other effect.  This will be in the courts for years regardless of the outcome. Do you think career politicians are capable of looking that far down the road.  Do you think they would admit it if they did? 

I'm not saying this will happen, it's just the most current event sample that comes to mind.  It's not a long term solution so I question the motivations behind those who started it.  Short term fixes to long term problems have never been successful and normally end up benefitting the wrong people at someone else's expense. 

To anyone who would call me paranoid, I would suggest they're naive if they don't believe there are a great many career politicians who plan that far down the road.

Marsha,

You have it completely covered, the amendment 1 proposal was all about Charlie Crist maing himself look good and pandering to the power brokers in central and southern florida, including the Speaker of the House.

Now let's take that a step further, locally we have a tendency to think all we need to do is put impact fees on new housing to resolve all of our problems. Let us consider what this really does. First the cost is actually passed on to the new home owner, remember our conversations about affordable housing? Secondly we now have this windfall that we think is going to help us, the politicians then use the money to build the schools you were referring to earlier, they are very grand in appearance, but are too small. That appears to be a good result for the public, however (remember we are thinking long term) in 10 or 20 years when all of these new schools are in need of significant repairs, where is that money? We don't have the money now to maintain our infrastructure and yet we spend these windfalls like a drunken sailor with no plan and apparently total disregard for what we are going to do in the future.

Is the Governor our friend, I don't think so and I am one of the people he supposedly targeted as getting the most return from his efforts. Are we as citizens and our government really attempting longterm solutions, I would think we might be;halfheartedly.

This is the biggest reason I am trying to get people to look for solutions not single out one group and spend all their energy attacking them, Light the candle and move the army. It is always good to let everyone know what you see as a problem, just present your case, look for a way around it (a solution) and move on. If the pioneers had stopped when they first came to the mountains there would still be no United States, they saw the problem, they found the solution and they moved on, they didn't stand at the foot of the mountains cursing them and telling anyone who would listen that the mountains were impeding progress, they found a solution!

In my years of work, I always operated under the assumption that no one person has all the answers and the more people you listen to the better the solution.

Let's imagine that HDA was in effect today.  The Ravines amendment would be voted upon by all of the residents of the County, not just the residents of the Ravines.  The bank trustee and the land owner would finance a big campaign to save the Ravines golf course.  Many county residents would vote yes on the amendment because they think that they are saving the course.  There would be misleading info put out and the residents of the Ravines would just have to hope that everyone was paying close attention and getting all of the facts, not just the info being spread by the trustee and the land owner.  Maybe the Ravines residents would win, maybe not, but what a terrible way to make that decision.  Or how about the zoning change coming to Moccasain Slough where the commissioners are trying to change the zoning so that the land will be protected from development forever (there was a story on it in the paper this week).  What if the Moc Slough amendment got stuck in the middle of a bunch of other amendment changes where people were voting NO and the Moc Slough amendment didn't pass.  Or what if the voters misunderstood the effect of the amendment, like apparently they do, because they have been calling the county complaining about the amendment, not realizing that it is meant to protect that land.  Now Moc Slough wouldn't be protected from development.  Maybe it would pass, maybe not, but again, what a bad system.  The solution is put people in office who approach issues and argue issues in a rational way, like I see CSD and Mr. Engineer doing on these blogs. 

CSD, I created that scenario to prove another point.  I am concerned now about getting the two threads confused so forgive me for having done that.  You asked in the other thread about HDA, why not work with the EAR and other programs already in place to try and achieve the desired effect rather then adding an amendment to the Constitution.

I'm the new kid on the block with regards to understanding all this stuff, all the programs the compreshensive this and the master that.

In a nutshell and I like nutshells it keeps it simple. In order to work within all these things I would first need to decipher the legal mumbo jumbo that creates loopholes for "exceptions to the rules" and that is where things get fuzzy.

HDA isn't fuzzy puts some control back into the hands of the people so I don't have to decipher all this other stuff.

Stan your scenario about HDA and the Ravines is too complex for me to really want to engage.  I think the basic issue of homeowner rights and having the right to expect what you bought into to remain intact is a basic right that most any homeowner can identify with.  The other situation you made reference to is something I have never even heard of.  My first intitial reaction to it though is wondering if there is some sort of wording in it that allows or disallows something that has nothing to do with the situation, rather like a pork barrel project.  It gets tacked onto something worthy otherwise it wouldnt stand on it's own.