Outer Beltway funding - Engineer replies

Two thoughts: 

Engineer said: "My main point has been and continues to be that if this road is feasible only when paid for by a foreign private entity, and if feasible only by tolling or destroying existing free roads and bridges, then it should not be built as presently designed and aligned."

1. Those "existing free roads" are already paid for by our taxes no? Can anyone tell me, is it illegal or merely immoral to ask us to pay for them again (and again, etc)?

2. When we pay tolls to the DOT, the state keeps the money, correct? So under current proposal, if we do pay tolls on a previously free road, now the money will no longer go to the state, but to the investors of the "foreign private entity"? Does that mean at least in part that our original tax dollars are being used to line someone else's pockets? I suppose this happens with football stadiums, too but then again, I'm not fond of that practice, either.

Mr. Engineer,

I commend you on a very well thought out and researched response and it is apparent you have made pro and con presentations for a project just as I have, and I bet you had some significant success.

It is apparent to me that you have some experience with the NERPM (Northeast Regional Planning Model) and have taken time to attend meetings and research the project beyond the point that most lay people would.

So let's talk about more specifics, in the FDOT, First Coast Outer Beltway Public-Private Partnership forum of March 28, 2007 and subsequent meetings of transportation officials and insiders, it was stated that it was "Assumed" that all tolls would be electronic, however in direct questioning (this is when the Sticker Tags were briefed), the FDOT representative stated that that was an assumption used in the "Modeling Process" and was not a condition of the RFP, at that time. When confronted with signifcant opposition he stated that those types of conditions would evolve out of the bidding, negotiating process. So I will give you i/2 point because it is not a foregone conclusion, just an assumption for modeling purposes.

Now the gas taxes---- Right On!!!!!)----- I wish more people understood that nexus. Implicite in your brilliant explanation, but not explained entirely was the correlary of the cost of gas to the decrease in gasoline consumption and thereby loss of gas tax revenue. This is a very key element in the continuing loss of revenue to build and maintain the transportation system.

I agree with you on removing or adding tolls to existing "Free" facilities, however in all of the meetings I have attended, it has been explained that the financial models will require that the existing free facilities be included in the "Toll Network". So, if we really want to get the beltway, this is an evil we will need to accept, or we will have no one who wants to invest in the project.

Now the service roads/frontage roads, you let a little bit of "Angela's paranoia slip in here. The original purpose, and I am sure the existing purpose, is to provide access to free transportation corridors for the residents living along the OB toll facility. Yes it will require that you go north to go south if you live on the west side of the OB and want to use SR-21 and vice versa, but, it becomes a question of timing and economics when you make that decision; is it faster & cheaper to pay the toll or to make the loop? A lot of the users, like myself, will base their use on economics, as I explained in my previous discussion, cars traveling at a constant highway speed with no stop and go traffic, get better gas mileage and the trip should be shorter in distance and/or time. My decision will be based on those criteria. I think most clay residents will or at least should, use the same criteria. So then it becomes a debate on providing options and freedom of choice; should anyone, limit the opportunity to spend some money for projected cost savings and ease of transit because they perceive the choice to be unjust from their perspective. BTW, I have an extensive education also in Philosophy.

Now the truck traffic, I am afraid this is a duel you have come to with an unloaded gun. Due to my extensive experience driving OTR, I must take you to task on some of your points. First you assume that I was never a Double Nut (Owner Operator)--- wrong!!! I was a O/O as well as a "Company Driver". Anyone who has a good financial management technique to run his "Rig" will tell you that when you budget for your operational expenses, you include usually one new tire a month or 10k miles, depending on your fuel consumption; the cost of fuel, a prorated "Breakdown Cost", "Lumper Fees" and tolls. This will give you your operating cost, you then figure an investment portfolio to prepare for purchasing a new truck or major repairs on your current one in case you "Spin a bearing" or "Pull a sleeve" or "pop a pumpkin: ( blow a tire). There is more to the financial aspect of being an O/O, but you get the idea. Tolls are figured in your cost either in your operational budget or to determine if taking a particular load is cost effective according to the rate being paid. The companies: I drove for a couple of smaller companies and Kraft Foods, they not only expect you to use the tolls, in the current environment with the GPS and transponders/computers, they will hold you accountable for the additional expense of protracted idling in traffic and loss of travel time. This is still current Operating procedures for three large companies that I have friends driving for. Once again, it is a financial decision, you get better fuel mileage when you are operating at a sustained highway speed rather than in stop and go traffic, you lose travel time and you increase your risk of 18 wheeler to 4 wheeler conflict and the resulting insurance claims.

The "Model predicts few end to end trips, Traffic volumns build up from Central Clay County to I-10 & I-95", that is a quote from the Florida Turnpike Enterprise traffic and Revenue study. What was not included in that model was the increase in container traffic and assumed again that traffic currently using US-301 and I-10 would continue. A significant number of the truck trips down 301 are so that the trucks can get to I-4 to cross over to I-95. What is not addressed in the model is if the 4 laning of SR-20 will increase or decrease those trips. So, the model is a good indicator, but not a predictor, too many variables missing.

The SIS system is just now attempting to address the increase in container traffic and in case you haven't noticed, about 75% of the SIS funds have been heading "Downstate". The Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP) Update for the First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization (FCMPO) is about to start the "Needs" element, any additional SIS funded projects need to be in that plan and then prioritized according to the criteria used in order to get high enough to appear in the "Cost Feasable Plan" so that they can get funded. North East Florida gets very little SIS funding and with the diminished state and federal transportation dollars, there will be even less projects funded and very heavy competition from Miami, Orlando and Tampa, so to make forecasts of SIS funding is very close to Voodoo. However, even if somehow there is more lanes added beyond the OB, there is still the potential for container traffic to flow to Cecil Commerce center. The biggest impact I can see from the containerized traffic is the competition for space on I-295, this will then flow downstream causing disruptions all along the Interstate corridors presently in existance, this will force more trips to be moved into other outlets, such as the OB.

For those of you keeping score, I lost track, but I think it is a draw.

Mr. Engineer, thank you for a very enlightening and technical discussion of the OB, I haven't had this much fun since I retired. I believe that we have given really concerned and objective people a lot of information for them to digest and that is what these "Blogs" have the potential to do. As for you  and I, I think, from my perspective, when it comes to the OB, I see the glass half full and under a faucet, you see the glass half empty and someone is stealing the water: my attempt at humor.

Again, thanks for providing me a chance to participate in more than just a wrestle in the mud with the pigs.

Forgive the small interuption but would you please tell me what a "scrub dweller" is?  Also, are the bloggers the pigs in mud you referred to?

I'm going to have to save all this reading on the outer beltway for the weekend when I have the time it will take to digest it all being a non engineering type person.

Ok, give it up, what's a scrub dweller?

There are parts of Florida that are referred to as "Sand Hill Scrub", it is more of a Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) classification of topographical and flora defined land.

Marsha I will give you my thoughts on a scrub dweller:

I call them Florida Scrubs and a part of our natural habitat in Florida.

One Place that I have visited is located on the high, well-drained ridge of ancient sand dunes within the Lake Wales Ridge State Forest, this fire-dependent scrub ecosystem supports at least 22 plant and 15 animal species listed as endangered or threatened. It has a 0.5-mile nature trail and a longer Florida Trail segment that provide miles of excellent hiking through pine flatwoods, pine and oak scrub, hammocks, sandhill communities and unique cutthroat seeps.  The cutthroat seep--dominated by cutthroat grass--is a moist habitat that periodically dries out.

Some of the Animals that are dependent on the Florida scrubs for their habitat. The gopher tortoise, Florida scrub-jay, and sand skink are typical scrub dwellers. The brown-headed nuthatches, Bachman’s sparrows, red-bellied woodpeckers and eastern bluebirds.

Areas that will fruther be destroyed to build the Outer Beltway if this is allowed to happen to the taxpayers of this fine county.

As far as Angela's paranoia and your extensive education also in Philosophy. Which sounds like one of our Commissioners (extensive research on backgrounds lead me to that conclusion) here telling us how wonderful the raping of the citizens and environment should be on us with this Beltway. However you are mistaken I was not discussing the service roads or as they will be called Frontage Roads.

Which are as Engineer stated: (Copy and paste)

"FREE SERVICE ROADS"?

CSB asserts that these would provide a free alternative to paying a toll along Clay portions of the OB route. These are also called frontage roads. The OB plans for them ONLY from Blanding north to Oakleaf Plantation Parkway. Their sole purpose is to channel drivers on side roads and driveways in that area to OB ramps, at which points drivers will be tolled as they pass beneath transponder gantries. Moreover, these frontage roads are planned to be one-way, causing some drivers to detour and backtrack.

That was 3claykids concerns not mine and rightfully so because she stated she frequently using that portion of the road for free. My travels into Jacksonville by the way of the Brannan Field road adds an additional 35 minutes to my drive in town. I only use it when the traffic backup exceeds that time limit on either Blanding or Hwy17.

I was the paranoid person asking for my free passes for the Shands Bridge which we will never get. We'll be lucky to get anything that even resembles reduced. Because we will pay for this road taxpayers.

I agree with Engineer 100% on their objections to this road and their reasons, and I hope the citizens remember every Commissioner that supported this when it comes time to vote in the elections. For a County that has caused the traffic problems with no outlook for the current resident and the limited access we have leaving the county presently because the large majority of us do work in Jacksonville. Then they would agree to take one of the three access areas of the county that we do have and force them to pay tolls and build a road for landowners and developers is why we have the present mess in this county. I don't care how you look at that picture, it is ugly.

Statement by Engineer which I agree fully with:

My main point has been and continues to be that if this road is feasible only when paid for by a foreign private entity, and if feasible only by tolling or destroying existing free roads and bridges, then it should not be built as presently designed and aligned.

As far as tolls, I remember real well the tolls in Jacksonville that was later voted on to remove the tolls and be taxed and another tax increase called the Better Jacksonville Plan. Which they seem to be doing just fine in Jacksonville because I use their roads daily. Flyovers, interchanges, routes that provide good roads to travel after all they accomodate almost a million residents and bypass traffic that goes through Jacksonville daily. As a matter of fact I buy all my gasoline in Jacksonville because it is cheaper than Clay County. I guess they are good stewarts of the peoples money and they have no problem telling the people what they need and them voting for those needs.

However, Clay County where corruption has cost the citizens dearly is another story and we will not vote for more taxes for incompetent Commissioners to continue to make stunningly pood judgment and decisions that have put us in this mess. This idea of the beltway as it is proposed just stacks right up there with the others.

If you are a Commissioner how about working on that moratorium for the citizens and do something for the taxpayers for a change.

Angela,

 I am not an elected official in any capacity and because of the venom I see displayed on these Blogs I have no desire to ever be. The reason I made the statement about the paranoia was because, as a "newby" to this blogging experience, it appears that you see a boogey man or a conspiracy in anything government. It would be interesting to understand what could have possibly drove a person of apparently above average intelligence to develop such a suspicious nature.

I have started researching some of these developers to see what heinous acts they performed against the citizens of this county that would justify such dynamic attacks and anger.

As you can see from my discussion with Mr. Engineer, we agreed on a number of issues and the ones we didn't agree on was primarily due to interpretation. Mr. Engineer brought due deliberation and common sense to his Blogging and was receptive to other arguments, this is the evidence of a rational and analytical, objective thought process;  although I believe he had some "Internal Noise" created by his pre-disposition of opposition to the OB. I on the other hand, as I explained in my attempt at a humorous analogy, am a "Glass Is Half full person", almost to the extreme. I have a tendency to believe that everyone should have an opportunity to their opinion and that most efforts by anyone is not inherently bad because I didn't think of them. I also believe it is best not to automatically call a person a bad, or let others tell me they are, I will let them prove it themselves. As far as I can see there is really only one commissioner who has been on the commission long enough to have had any impact on this beltway, so, going on your judgement of all commissioners, I am led to assume that George Bush has also committed some heinous act against the citizens of clay county.

What I can't understand is; if you are so sure that things should and could be better in clay county, why aren't you on the commission or in some official capacity, working within the system to create this change. Giving away my age; I will tell you during my early years in college, we, the reactionary college students, learned that the best way to create change was from within the system, not from outside.

 I asked you in another blog to come up with a rational process to solve the problems you seem so offended by and to do so with a Plan of attack and milestones (POA&M) to explain how it can be done, but what you gave me was a building moratorium. While I partially agree with a moratorium, it is for different reasons. That also doesn't address all the traffic problems, all I can see is that it would punish the builders, how does that reflect transportation solutions. We have transportation problems right now, even if we never build another house in clay county. If we populate all the empty houses and don't have good paying jobs in the county the existing problems are going to get a lot worse.

You stated that your buying your gasoline in Duval county, are you aware that you are taking those gas tax dollars from clay county and the transportation system in your own county, to help duval county. I have no way of knowing how many other clay county residents literally steal needed transportation revenue from clay county by buying their gas in duval county, but it might be enough to assist in building more north/south corridors and enhancing existing thoroughfares to the point that we would not need the OB; I know Mr. Engineer, if your watching, that is about as much voodoo as my analogy of the SIS projections.

My whole point is, it appears to me, a newby, that someone has really "kicked your pup" and you are so PO'd that all builders and developers are the resident evil in clay county. What is it that has you so riled that you cannot see anything but evil and you put all your efforts into attacks to punish these people?

I enjoy reading about all the stuff going on, to a POINT!  These Point/Counterpoint blogs remind me of the old SNL shows. 

Please folks, can't you just state the facts and be more succinct?  I feel like I'm back in high school trying to determine which is the most important and factual, and how I should write my report.

Thanks.

Angela's perspective and suspicion about the impulse to develop and build out Clay County simply because -- well, we can -- is fairly prevalent among the (dare I call them?) "the old guard" in the county. Not all, by any means, but it's definitely a strong presence.

Although I grew up in central Florida (talk about development issues!), I spent a good deal of my childhood here; my grands are retired Navy and have lived here since Grove Park was brand spanking new. Back then, the development just kept coming -- fast forward -- and look at the mess Wells and Blanding have become. A student asked me the other day if had been to a restaurant where he works on Youngerman and I nearly snorted, "Do I look like I'm nuts?" I travel up that way less than once a month. I am by no means afraid of traffic; I never would have survived a decade in S. Florida if I were, and I drive a good way into Duval to work.  I see no reason however, to subject myself to the mess that is Northern Clay at Blanding. 

You're absolutely right , clayscrub; there's no way a moratorium would correct the current issues. Poor planning and inability to prevent out of control growth did us in a great long time ago. However, I can't tell you the number of people who see all this mess and wonder why it's not perfectly obvious to everyone else that we couldn't possibly need another car wash instead of the last bit of green left on Blanding Blvd. Some kick and scream, some move further away, and others decide to live with it.

I'm not entirely convinced that more jobs in Clay would be a cure, either, however.  The people who work in Duval and live in Clay aren't all making the daily trek because they can't find a similar job in Clay, but because they can't find neighborhoods in Duval that they want to live in with their families. But further development without proper planning may make Clay just another place that people evacuate in search of friendlier neighborhoods.

Working toward concurrency seems to be a step in the right direction. I don't like the idea of tearing up more woodlands (and of course, free road access) to build a big road that seems engineered (sorry gentlemen, not you) specifically to bring more strip malls, car washes, and general paving of what's left of Florida. However, as you suggested, I sure  love a big open road as much as any other 'drive-too-much" American, so I'm still weighing the options. In contrast, many out there seem to have seen enough over the years to convince them that the current path needs a great big stop sign. I understand where they're coming from even if I'm only one foot in their camp.

Likewise, I've enjoyed reading your evaluations and appreciate your optimism; I hope it's well founded and not just wishful thinking.

I have no boogey man under my bed and you are not invited. I did not intent to or want to make this a blog about me. I feel it only distracts from the issues at hand.

So I will reinterate my statement which I feel makes the best point of all made by Engineer.

"My main point has been and continues to be that if this road is feasible only when paid for by a foreign private entity, and if feasible only by tolling or destroying existing free roads and bridges, then it should not be built as presently designed and aligned."

Taxpayers industry attached to roof tops or beltways will not produce real industry. Zoning issues would prevent that from happening. It's just nice buzz words that mean nothing. 

Maybe you could review this plan of attack and milestones and show me where this Outer Beltway is listed as a major corridor in this released plan by the FDOT.

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/corridor/plan.pdf

I can show you where Governor Bush and his CSX plan is on there.

Angela,

Thank you for referencing this study, I hadn't read it in awhile and it was good to refresh my memory, btw, I think everyone should read it, it is very informative and easy to follow.

One of the first things it states is; "Transportation has been an Engine for Growth in Florida", that is all growth, including economic and rooftop growth.

Your point about finding the OB on the corridor maps is simple to explain, it isn't, these are corridor study "AREAS". If you had been at one of the briefs, as I was, and had asked about the OB, as I did, you would have had it explained that the study areas of "D" and "E" would contain the OB as a connector to centers of commerce downline from NE florida in each corridor. But, since these are "Study Areas" the actual road does not show up.

Further on in the document; pg 18. it states "for the past 15 years 91% of limited access roadways have been tolled roads & bridges.

What this study is attempting to do, is to identify "Corridors" that must be addressed to forward the "Vision" of florida, by specific areas, for 20 years from now. The "Vision" of this region has the OB in it, in concept, the actual alignment and completed cross section is not completely defined, as of my last update.

It would be a waste of time and space for me to continue a point by point discussion of this document when you have so graciously provided the link to it for anyone interested in researching this study. Again, it is great reading and will give great insight into the planning behind transportation developments in the future.

3kids, I think maybe you misunderstood my meaning of being a newby, I guess I qualify as one of your "Old Guards" both in age and tenure in the county, I can remember when blanding was a skinny two lane road south of Kingsley and most of 218 was dirt and all of the current Brannanfield road was dirt. I am a newby to this blogging experience and I am having a hard time sticking with it, Mr. Engineer was the saving grace for me with his detailed discussion of all things transportation although he, like myself, used a subjective presentation, his reflects his obvious objection to the OB.

Angela, I am glad you gave us the link to the corridor study, that is what a good POA&M looks like, it would be great if you could apply your efforts to solving the evils of the county in such a direct and structured POA&M so that everyone could see how it is possible. You keep mentioning the moratorium and I have said, I support something of a moratorium myself, however, I don't see how that is going to relieve the transportation problems we are already experiencing, show me how that would solve the existing problems on blanding, US-17, Kingsley, CR-209, CR-218, etc.. There is not enough revenue now to address these issues and with people buying their gas in Duval county, the revenue stream is not going to get better. Show me where we would get the money to build new north/south corridors, add lanes to US-17, widen CR-218, etc.. I am willing to listen to a structured, documented POA&M that can stand up to scrutiny by the other inquiring minds in clay county. Also, since you seem to have such a "Fire In Your Belly" for these issues, why not get involved in the process as a commissioner or in some other "Official Capacity", don't just shoot arrows, move the army.

Kudos Engineer and Scrub.

Like Marsha,  I am gong to read it again (I had to print it), highlighter in hand.

Succinct is helpful for this poster who many times feels like I am bringing a knife to a gun fight. Angela, on the ther hand detail helps too! Thanks for the link to the corridor study, I have printed that out too. 3kids is right about car washes on Blanding, a new one where the florist used to be has already closed.

Most important from my view.  Angela, you should be in goverment.  I really am sincere.  You would bring so much to the table.  Incredible smarts, research and fact finding skills, passion, an obvious love for this county.  If public service isn't your "thang" (and it wouldn't be most folks) how about a POA & M on this issue. A 10 year moratorium won't solve the decades of poor/no planning.  Of all the bloggers, you are the one who can do the research and ferret out the solution.

All Bloggers,

If you think we should start an effort to "Draft" Angela into county Goverment as a "Commissioner", there is still time for her to qualify for the "At Large" position. If she is on the "other side" we might get some better solutions, I think it is worth a try!

Didn't mean to imply you were new to the county- you hadn't really given clues either way until now  (not that I noticed, at least). I meant to say I"m a newbie to the blogging experience as well as you are. I think I muddied the water when I included some of the things I had seen in the blogs and heard in the process of becoming acclimated to Clay as a full time resident. Not a very fine distinction, I know, but wouldn't want to imply you don't have tenure. :)

And you are a good example of my statement earlier: lots of resistance to the effect of development  in the old guard, yet obviously not a universal feeling... variety keeps it interesting, eh?

NCLB: No Chocolate Left Behind

Scrub,

I will concede to both your deeper analysis of the NERPM and your OTR trucking experience. I do remain convinced that the frontage roads in the OB corridor near Blanding will not provide a toll free alternative to reach I-10, or for that matter, even Argyle, 103rd St, or FCCJ / Cecil. Images contained in the Project Info Memo at fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com clearly show them ending just north of Oakleaf at ramps to / from the OM mainline lanes. Those ramps will be tolled.

I also remain steadfast in my objection to the OB as now designed, aligned and financially modeled for reasons set forth here.

You make a valid argument that I am biased against this project. Quite true. In addition, it is insufficient to merely be against something without proposing viable alternative. 'No build' is clearly not an option - we have traffic problems that will worsen with time.

I do have a series of ideas and proposals, which, owing to a looming project deadline, 1.5 jobs, 2.5 kids, and massive ongoing house construction, I cannot do justice to here right now. I offer this summary to tide everyone over the weekend:

It will include:

Self help

Local control

Contributions by more than just builders and new home buyers

Electronic tolling

Viable, doable projects to improve our several worst bottlenecks

It will NOT include:

Mortgaging our children's and granchildren's driving futures

Sending $2.2 billion, plus interest, jobs and profits overseas.

Stay tuned!

Kudos to all trying to keep up with all this. Open note quiz on Monday - don't delay studying until late Sunday night after the game.

Since coming on these blogs, my main reason is to offer information and research to the citizens/voters of the county. I think the power is in the people and the greatest power in the ones who vote. We need the fire in the belly of the people not in more Commissioners. We have turned over alot of that power to people who have made some poor choices in the county. We need to take it back. 

We need government not to be a language that the average citizen doesn't understand or take the time to get to know. We need a plain, simple, concise, and clear explaination for them to understand in the "CNN" news in a minute version. A place such as the blogs where they can read it on their own time and make their own choices. Giving them the power to make those choices.

You know these studies the MPO or the NEFRPC are all government agency making these decisions for the poeple. They are elected officials funded by the same groups that got them in the job. Well except for Ms. pro-growth Stearn she was the Commissioner booted out of St. John's County by the voters but appointed by Governor Bush to the NEFRPC.

I would venture to ask how many people who read the blogs have attended one of those meetings. I bet if you asked the landowners/developers they have been often.

Let me offer as a link Florida's Growth Management Act. However, admirable to get the people involved. They do not have the time to invest in attending all these meetings. What has happened is the people who stand to profit the most attend these meeting and work the system. I called them the "cadillac welfare moms". They don't need the help but they know how to work the system. I get upset when people come on the blogs and call them lazy, uniformed, and not interested. That is not correct because these people work, have families, and spend alot of time on our roads. They elect people to look out for their interest. Sorry but that hasn't happened in the county. That's not the fault of the people but the people they elected.

I see a hunger in the County of people who don't like what has happened and what's going on with the direction of the county. I hope that some of the information and research I do helps them get more involved and makes it easier for them to understand.

Besides, I don't support the 2 additional Commissioners positions because we didn't have a broken system, but broken people, who let the citizens down in our county. Anybody who thinks just voting for 2 additional people will fix our problems will be let down again.

Now for the link http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FE643

Now, instead of just looking forward to Super Bowl highlights on Monday, I'll be waiting for Engineer's plan.

Angela, you're right on target.  This is the year that local politics can be wrested from the hands of a few and spread among the many.  I hope you're correct about a citizen unrest that will force some changes in local government.

And taking the foreign language out of government to make it accessible to everyone has been one of my personal goals for decades.  A cheat-sheet of acronyms, programs and definitions (like I had to make for myself after the first meeting of the largely-ineffectual Citizens Currency Committee) shouldn't be necessary to keep up with the conversation when government conducts its public business.

The blogs, with contributions like this one, can help serve as a translator until we elect people who will work to eliminate, instead of reinforce, barriers between regular folks and their government.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

onemann - hmm. I'm suspicious of anyone who expects me to use precise and clear language; that sounds like a lot of work.

Whatever happened to that 'plain English' campaign about trying to get government docs to say what they mean? Poor dweeby guy. Cornered by 'political correctness,' 'legalese,' and 'ambiguity' in the locker room and given a wedgie, I suspect.

NCLB: No Chocolate Left Behind

Angela,

You are missing the point, just informing the electorate will not change anything, if the elected officials ignore the people who put them in office and that is what you keep complaining about.

I have been researching a lot of the organizations you are taking to task and I cannot for the life of me see the devious plots you keep referring to. The MPO it seems has four Clay County residents on the Citizens Advisory Committee and from what I can gather, one of them is a member of the CTLAC, none of them are elected, does this mean that the CTLAC is itself complicite in the problems you are outlining? The two clay county members of the MPO board, are elected officials and the one with the most seniority is Commissioner George Bush, he has been on the MPO board for over 10 years, it this why you distrust him?

You keep going back to informing the electorate, but isn't it better if you are accountable to and responsive to the people who should be running the government, the citizens? you can do that by being part of the process, either as a commissioner or one of the people appointed to one of these organizations. A good start, since the OB is such a concern for you is to maybe get appointed to the MPO Citizen's Advisory Committee of the MPO, if the CTLAC member isn't doing the right thing, replace that person, or one of the others.

You still have not given us any comprehensive POA&M solutions and have not mentioned how you justify buying all your gas in Duval county. Since you are so enamoured with the "Better Jacksonville Plan" (BJP) maybe you can explain how the Court House is a good use of the money raised in the BJP. You also have yet to explain to me what these developers have done that is so evil that you feel it is necessary to constantly attack them. I have begun researching the most evil of these developers, according to you and a couple of other "Bloggers", the Reinhold Corporation. So far, all I have found is that they have proposed a DRI  called Saratoga Springs outside of Green Cove Springs, that isn't even started yet. I have found no other development they have done, could you tell me where to look, I am missing something, it appears.

You see my problem, I am trying to get information and I am having a hard time finding what it is that drives you. In order for someone who is somewhat analytical in nature to understand and support you, I need reinforcement of the things you state, yet you tell everyone that you take money from your community to support an effort in a larger community that has been indicted in the media almost from the beginning, (the BJP). When I ask for a solution for these issues, this is something that I am sure Mr. Engineer can relate to, I get more accusations. In my past professional life I was told almost everyday, don't bring me "Just Problems", bring the problems with some potential solutions, without solutions, you are part of the problem.

I am one of the people who you have stated you want to inform. I have stated that I am the kind of person who doesn't accept that someone or something is bad just because someone else "Says So". I will always assume that everyone has something good to say and that their actions are appropriate and noble, unless they show me otherwise. I have lived in the county for a very long time and can see some of the things you complain about and they bother me, but I cannot find anything so evil that it would drive me to the level you have achieved in attacking everything that is Government. I am hungry for information, but I need something with substance not innuendo and since you have not shown me your willingness to seek solutions in your own county, I am starting to doubt your sincerety.

I don't think I am missing the point. I have a 1:00 meeting that is mandatory. So I will need to address some of these later.

I spend an enormous amount of time on Jacksonville's roads. It is only fair that I contribute to their funds to work those roads.

I spend more time driving down Hwy 17 of Blanding just to get to the Jacksonville line than I spend driving to my destination in Jacksonville.

Try it one morning or in the afternoon.

Mr. Engineer,

Where have you been all my short blogg life??? First, I haven't stated that the frontage roads would provide free access northward from Oakleaf, I haven't reviewed my response, but if I inferred that, I was in error, it will only provide access north to Oakleaf and south from Oakleaf to blanding, "Good Catch".

That little teaser you just gave us has me salivating, I believe I now who you are in real life and if you are that person, you are one of the smartest young men I have ever met, if not then we have two very bright young men in clay county looking for solutions, salvation may indeed be at hand. That is not humor that is sincere! When I see brilliant young men like yourself who are willing to get involved and provide solutions, I am re-energized and feel more secure about the future of my grandchildren.

"Whatever happened to that 'plain English' campaign about trying to get government docs to say what they mean? Poor dweeby guy. Cornered by 'political correctness,' 'legalese,' and 'ambiguity' in the locker room and given a wedgie, I suspect."

If that's me you're referring to, 3claykids, I suspect your suspicion is pretty far off base, so I'll explain it in "plain Englsih."

Rather than abandon my fight to have government conduct business in "plain English," I plan to continue my decades-long battle.  Besides, political correctness isn't, and never will be, a big concern of mine.  If that's all anyone can find to complain about me, I'm sure not gonna lose any sleep over it.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

RE: Scrub dweller Submitted by Angela on Fri, 02/01/2008 - 11:34am.

Angela,

I don’t have a clue who you are but if I did I would seek you out today and hug your neck.  That response was awesome.

Those of you who do not vote are doing yourselves and your family a great disservice.

You must take the time to cast informed votes because after the votes are counted,  you and yours will have to live with the authority of a new public servant or policy for a long time.

I invite you to take your children with you to the polls.  Show excitement and express that you "get to go vote today"; not that you "have to go vote today" as if it were a bothersome chore. 

I bet that if someone told you that you could not vote, you would be there in droves.

ack onemann!

I'm totally for accurate writing; it's my bread and butter. Pardon my ill fashioned metaphor -- it obviously didn't work!

No, Im referring to an actual campaign in Florida, possibly proposed by Jeb, about making documents clearer. It seems to me it was ambushed somewhere, because like you, I have seen little improvement in that arena. I postulatd instead that all the other competing interests prevented its progress.

Battle on; I'm right behind ya!

NCLB: No Chocolate Left Behind

Very good suggestion, get informed and vote. I would suggest that this is not the best place to get informed, there is too much bias displayed here. I would read these bloggs, research the information referenced here and, with an open mind, make a decision based on the true, complete, data available.

Emotions oftentimes get involved and while you can't and probably shouldn't discount them, temper them with analysis and common sense. One thing I have noticed in my decades long transition through this life is, it is very easy to lump things and people into one group and then make judgements based on that composite. Over the years I have seen some very good people pass through the government, at all levels and some very bad ones, but since I have not walked a mile in their shoes, I attempt to withhold judgements on a macro scale, because I don't have all the data.

I have personally known some commissioners and some of them were good friends over the years, but I can tell you from my experience they didin't always make decisions that I agreed with. I have had conversations with some of them about our disagreements and sometimes, rarely, they were able to convince me that the decision they made was the right one. Right now, we have two commissioners that are pretty brand new and from what I can see are doing a bang-up job, do I agree with them? not always, but do I respect them for wanting to subject themselves to this type of ridicule and constantly be maligned as people with deceptive motives, you betcha.

I suspect that the real reason angela doesn't want to get actively involved is because she does not want all the people who are enamoured with her stand on positions, to hold her up to the same scrutiny and ridicule. It would seem that she (Angela) thinks that anyone who becomes a commissioner automatically morphs into this evil being that has nothing but contempt for the people they represent. Maybe she is afraid that would happen to her. It is a shame, because I think with her intelligence and overcoming her predisposition to pontificate about evil and then move along, she could be as good a source of information as Mr. Engineer.

Mr. Mann,

Someone just told me you are running for commissioner, is this true? How will you respond to the charges leveled in these bloggs, if you are elected? I know that you will be making decisions that will irritate some of the people on here, so what is driving you to put yourself in that situation? I would also like to know what your solutions are to the traffic problems in clay county?

One Mann, Since you are running and have essentially a open forum of One Mann/ One Candidate I would like you to use opportunity to answer  questions of substance(Let's start with traffic). I think many people on MCS would like to know your thoughts.  Then MCS will provide more substance about you and less of just a free political ad.

And please, (I have asked before) don't use any hateful words about mental status--even citing Twain.  You are a much better writer than that

Yeah, 'Dweller, I'm running for District 3 on the County Commission, to replace the retiring George A. Bush.

As far as participation in the MCS blogs, I was writing before I was a candidate and I'll be writing when I'm no longer one.  Whether elected or not, I'll continue to participate as long as the blogs continue to be a place where people can bandy about their ideas on local government.  As to any "charges leveled" against me here in the blogs, I don't plan on hiding from anything I do, so I'll continue to do what my momma taught me - just tell the truth.

What drives me to run is a variety to things, too lengthy to recite here without hijacking someone else's blog.  So is my transportation plan, which I'm still researching and refining.  But I'll announce it when it's ready.

Claykids, thanks.  Even "plain English" can be misinterpreted at times.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

Clueless your statement regarding Mike Mann using the blogs for a free political ad bugs me.  I was here the day MCS was open for business, in fact I waited for it to come to pass because I was tired of writing "Letters to the Editor" and sitting in wait hoping it would get published.  I was here in the beginning and so was Michael Mann.  If you go back and look in the archives you will find a citizen of Clay County who was a journalist by profession and was here from the very beginning long before he ever considered running for office. That is important if you are truly searching for "truth"

If you want a Commissioner who is not a career Politician then Mike Mann is your candidate.  If you want a Commissioner who is not ignorant of the challenges that face this county, then Michael Mann is the man for the job, as a journalist he's been at the forefront of the Countys' issues for some time.  If you want a Commissioner that will remember that ALL PEOPLE deserve the respect of being heard then Michael Mann is someone you want on the BCC.

If you're someone who can see beyond your own District and care about what is good for the County, then Michael Mann is the Candidate you should support regardless of where you live. You want real people in Goverment?  Now is your chance.

You've got an average "Joe" trying to jump into the muck and make some sense of it. Anyone who cannot see that  he is  not the "same sort"is someone who cannot see the forest for the trees.

I've said it before but it bears repeating. I don't live in District 3 but I am putting both my mouth and my money behind Michael Mann because he is a breath of freaking fresh air for this county that is sorely needed.

Disagree with him if you wish,  campaign against him for someone you like better. But don't imply that he is here for the "free publiciity" because I have been here since the beginning and I'm telling you that isnt' true, and its a undeserved accusation.

For other Commissioners or Candidates to follow his lead and come here being willing to hear, and respond to the people would be a dream come true.  It will return, if only locally,  Goverment of the People by the People and for the People.  To criticize because he used a word you didn't like in a previous blog or question his integrity with no valid reason other then being cynical just isn't right. 

I didn't know Michael Mann before the creation of MCS so no, I don't have a long history with which to orate from.  However I have a very long history of my instincts serving me well and until such time as I find out differently Michael Mann is the best chance this County has had for some time. 

Debate his beliefs or opinions all you like, but if you take a swipe at his character then you're taking a swipe at more then one person.  I BELIEVE in his character, integrity and his ability and he's not here "using" anything or anyone.  I would like to see all the incumbent Commissioners come here willing to talk to the people.

So far the only recognition this site and the bloggers have gotten from the Clay County Goverment is a statement of contempt for the bloggers by the Clay County Attorney.

I agree.

Whoa, Marsha, Whoa...I would respectfully ask you to back the bus up on the character remark. I do not know where you think I have in any way maligned OneManns character.  In fact, I wouldn't know the man if I passed him on the street.  I have on several occaisions complemented him on his writing. I think using the time he entered the blogs should have no bearing on when he started "campaigning" or not campaigning on MCS.  Actually I think it is a brilliant campaign idea, intended or not.  It got many bloggers on his team possibly without even considering another person in the race.  I say good for Mr, Mann.  It as good an idea as the Sheriff's candidate who was forward thinking about the signs at the polls.

I just requested substance, I echoed traffic like Scrub. One Mann really is a good writer I just asked for something more than great phrases like "local politics being wrestled from the few and spread among the many" Gosh, as I paraphrase that, it sounds a bit socialist. NOW, before you hammer me on that--I am poking fun.If I did not know better, I would think you were defending the good ole boy (blog) network. I have gotten used to the "A"  and "B" team on this blog. So from a member of the "B" team, there was absolutely NO intent to defame Mr. Mann. 

Marsha, I think he is a big boy and will call me out  if he feels his character has been questioned. If I were him I would ask you to be his campaign manager, or at least his head cheerleader! I wish him luck, its going to be a long road till the elections in Nov. if these blogs are an indication of how the "masses" feel about politicians.  I also hope he has a clean closet, thick skin and sense of humor.  He will need them all.

Once again I remain clueless (except I know where my place is on MCS--B Team) in clay.

Read 44 and Mike Mann I want to make sure that the day does not pass without note of a story in the MCS News section of the paper today.

Named and linked for those who would like to read. Clay goes against grain but turnout was 'phenomenal'  http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/020108/nec_242071901.shtml

Thanks to all the voters in Clay County that honored the one thing that gives us the citizens, the power, and the voice. Our vote. I don't care how you voted as long as you took the time to vote. I will say again, Get out the vote. Turnout was phenomenal, I liked that word.

Scrub Dweller your statement that someone must of kicked my dog is the reason I provide information and research. Well I guess you need to have a dog first to have someone kick your dog. So think what you may about what drives me. I think I have been more than open about the facts. I don't asked the bloggers or the readers to agree with me, but to read the information and the research that I have provided, and make their own choices. Most of all demand accountability from our elected officials because after all they work for us, and we pay their salary.

To say the blogs don't provide the community with a balanced approach to the issues in the community is just wrong in my opinion. Everyone has an opportunity to read or blog on here. We have points and counterpoints. There are bloggers that I agree with on some subjects, and some subjects I don't. I respect the people in the community and I respect the bloggers. I think we all have a role to play in the community, and the biggest role is to be involved. Our greatest power is our vote. MCS has provided a place where we can discuss any issue that we feel is important to the people in the community. I would like to join the many and say, Thanks MCS you're awesome.

I would like to say thanks to Engineer for the blogs on the Outer Beltway and you Scrub Dweller for your counterpoints. I just as many on here wait for his missive on the Outer Beltway. I appreciate those with the credentials such as theirs to provide information in a form that the citizens can understand and without every acronym that has been thrown in, to throw us off, and lose us in the first sentence.

With that I will stop hijacking a blog about the Outer Beltway which has been exceptional, and turn this into a blog about Angela. I am just one of many on these blogs in search of positive change in the community.

I didn't say you did take a swipe at this character, what I said was "but if you take a swipe at his character"

Didn't say you had, didn't say you were going to.  "If" implies the possibility, not the fact.

You basically implied he was here for the free publicity and I straightened that out because he came here as a citizen of clay county just like the rest of us.

Your comments about "using hateful words", he said the word Moron to someone who was acting like a Moron.  I understand that you are sensetive to the word and I believe he apologized yet you continue to bring it up.  I believe it was under that same thread that you once again made the implication that there is some sort of favoritism or "clics" in the blogs. 

There is no "A" and "B" team on the blogs Clueless as much as you like to keep saying there is.

I guess I am just asking you to use the same sensetivity that you demanded from him over a seperate blog days ago that you continue to go on about. 

I agree with you that Mike doesn't need me to defend him, and neither do I sit by and idily wait for his direction before I speak. 

I said it the other day and it's worth repeating.  It is human nature to support people you know and/or trust.

Angela,

The comment about "Kicking your pup" is an old southern analogy to explain why someone is PO'd; just humor.

Let me echo your comment about the vote, I was not happy with all the results but pleased that people took the time to vote.

I guess I need to explain what I am looking for and why. When I was first told about these "Blogs", I was told they were entertaining and not really something to take too serious because it was mostly a few people railing against the government. When I first signed on, that is pretty much what I observed. I used the very old analogy of being involved in the blogs was like; "Wrestling with pigs, you both get muddy, the pig likes it and after awhile no one can tell who the pig is". Now for those who don't understand hillbilly, cracker or redneck humor, let me explain: that is saying if you get involved in the debate, you become one of "them" and you are all slinging mud, so you all appear the same to any outsider, my preliminary observation.

I was disappointed that this was a lost opportunity for the "Masses" to actually provide some positive input into the process of governance. It was frustrating to observe a lot of animosity and hatred directed at the gov. and a few individuals in the community with no real explanation what caused such rancor. While I can understand the need to "Vent", in my experience, and I am sure the same holds true for other professionals, you are not taken seriously unless you provide solutions to the problems you are venting about. Solutions should be well thought out and offered in a comprehensive way so that everyone has the opportunity to evaluate and support or debate them. This is not what I see happening here for the most part. Mr. Engineer will soon show us how it is done and I cannot wait to see your responses.

After my initial response, and my exchange with Mr. Engineer and the possibility of his impending solution, I have withheld my judgement. Angela, you have such a wealth of knowledge, I am still confused why you will not provide a well thought out and comprehensive POA&M to resolve some of the evils you see in the community. I am still waiting for you and others to explain this hatred of the government and some developers.

Marsha, 

1) NO implication intended on my part, just an honest question.

2) I believe there was no apology from Mr. Mann--none was needed or expected

3) It appears to THIS blogger that if you question one of the regulars you folks close ranks.

4) I too, am hijacking a quality blog so I will research (inspired by Angela), check the archives(coached by Marsha), temper my words(as to not be chastised like Islander, Key, Spot, etc), thoughtfully (like Bax) and with subject matter knowledge (Engineer and Scrub) possibly start my own thread in the future.

I remain, clueless and on the "B" team in clay.

CSD,

I've been here since the beginning as has Angela and a few others.  From that vantage point I see some significant process in making it more about the issues rather then the people. 

It's my own personal opinion that the reason for the "rancor" is that people see a system that not only allows for abuse, but even protects it putting it out of reach to the average citizen to fight or correct.

I would much rather see rancor then apathy. 

People keep saying the blogs are pointless, or merely a source of entertainment, "don't take them too seriously".  I disagree.  We have proof that they're being read by our officials.  We've had the office of the Clerk of Court come here to respond.  Earlier in the week Angela posted emails between BCC members discussing the blogs.

There are many out there who would like to reduce these blogs to nothing more then people running their mouths, it's to their advantage to do so.  It doesn't make it true.

Angela posted the link on voter turn out.  42% voter turn out vs 17 & 11% from previous primary elections.  I've not seen anything in print about the overall voter turnout in the state, if it increased in several places then you could probably rack it up to the Amendment 1 issue.  If Clay County was the exception rather then the rule then it's not so far off the mark to think that these blogs have had some impact.

It's the dirtiest trick in politics....make people think that what they think, say, or do doesn't matter.  It grows alot of apathy.

Lots of people have asked Angela why she doesn't do something more. Personally I am glad she's here, putting the effort here.  I would hate to see those skills taken away to use somewhere else.  I believe they serve the people better here.  I can't keep up with everything she says, she has alot more on the ball then I do. There are also times I don't share her views but I still appreciate the value of what she does.

Bottom line is though SCD, you joined towards the end of this first year. Personal attacks of the bloggers are increasing, but the attacks on individuals serving in Goverment have actually lessened if you don't consider what is being said that is attached to an election year and if you don't consider the fact that some people join this site with that one thing in mind...to attack someone else.

Geez, take a Friday night away from a computer and look at what I missed.

Thanks for the words about me, whether kind or questioning, although it all seems a little out of place to me in a blog about the Outer Beltway.  I'd much rather gleen information from Engineer and 'Dweller as they discuss a topic that will affect virtually every Clay County citizen long after I'm a footnote in a book about local political trivia.

Those looking for substance may, in fact, not find it from me here in the blogs, at least if you equate susbtance with specific answers or plans to some of the complex problems facing Clay County government.  If that happens, the reason will probably fall into one of three categories.

First, I may not have an answer or plan to satisfy every question that can be asked.  Second, there is the matter of timing.  Some things I'm still working on, gathering information and talking to people in different fields, and I may not be ready to answer a specific question.

But most important, I think Clay County government's biggest shortcoming is the rather myopic view of its elected officials.  That leads to a marked absence of questions that could, and should, be asked on behalf of all Clay County's citizens.  Sometimes it's not the answer about a particular issue that I'll have, but a question that arises from a perspective that comes from outside the local political circle that spawns most candidates and officials.

As concerns use of MCS as free campaign ads, I offer this for consideration.  There is nothing I'm aware of that prohibits my opponents in the District 3 County Commission race, Debbie Terry and Travis Cummings, from participating in the exchange of ideas and information in this forum.

Clueless, your comment about me needing a "clean closet, thick skin and sense of humor" sounds exactly like advice I received when I first mentioned, in answer to a direct question to all bloggers, that I was thinking about running for office.  My closet is no cleaner or dirtier than most folks; my skin thickness is probably about normal, and all that's really needed.  Expecting more just because I'm a candidate for office is unrealistic.

Sense of humor, though, is something I do have in abundance and there's no way a few months of campaign indignities and four years of not being able to please every constituent with every decision is gonna change that.

Finally, you're correct in that I did not offer an apology for my choice of words that offended you, Clueless.  While your personal experience may justifiably lead you to consider my words unsavory or even mean, I think your reaction in this particular forum is extreme and far outside that of most everyone who would read the words I used in the context I used them.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net