Outer Beltway fundingRecent entries in the CTLAC-oriented blog suggest it may be worthwhile to discuss Outer Beltway (OB) funding and tolling in a separate blog. This is also necessary for fairness to the CTLAC Blog; 'Netiquette' asks that we not 'hijack' an existing blog to discuss issues not related to the original blog. I have closely followed this project and its ancestors since moving here in 1995. It is complex, hugely expensive, and subject to continual change as funding, priorities, plans, personnel, and populations all shift. As a result, there is a good deal of outdated and wrong information in circulation. I will attempt to shed some light here: WHAT WE KNOW: 1) A preferred alignment has been chosen. FDOT recently integrated the St. Johns River Crossing Study with the Brannen Field Chaffee Expressway into the "First Coast Outer Beltway". The Corridor is 46+ miles long with a projected cost exceeding $2 Billion. 2) There is almost no current or planned local, state or federal money available to build this road as a freeway. Very limited (less than 1% of total project cost) funds are now being spent to refine the corridor, determine environmental impacts, identify right-of-way needed, perform limited geotechnical studies, and manage the project. 3) Florida's Turnpike may not legally construct this project, even as a toll road. By statute, the Turnpike is prohibited from building roads whose projected tolls will not support bonds issued to fund construction within certain times. Think of homebuyers being asked to show that their income qualifies them for a mortage. Preliminary traffic and revenue studies concluded that projected tolls fall well short of paying required bonds in time to comply with Florida statutes. 4) Rather than giving up, FDOT is soliciting private partners to build the OB. Under this scenario, a group of private investors, banks and construction companies (A public-private-partnership, or PPP) teams up to put up the money and build the OB in exchange for the right to collect tolls. The difference between such a consortium and Florida's Turnpike is that the PPP could agree to wait (and collect tolls) far longer, 50 to 100 years, (and ultimately collect $Billions more) than the Turnpike is allowed. This is a first for FDOT, but there are other precedents elsewhere in the US and throughout the world. Surf California Route 125, Indiana Tollroad, Pocahontas Parkway, Northwest Parkway, 407 ETR, M6 Toll, and Chicago Skyway for details of similar projects. Most feature international consortia with tolling rights spanning generations to come.
WHAT IS PROBABLE: 1) The OB will be a tollroad costing car drivers 12-15 cents per mile each way to start plus $2 each way to cross the St Johns. These tolls will rise, likely yearly. 2) There will be no cash tollbooths. Every driver will be required to obtain and install a transponder, probably a 'SunPass'. SunPass transponders now cost $25, and SunPass tolls are required to be paid up front similar to a prepaid cell phone card. I have one for use downstate, and every month, along with credit card charges, I get a statement showing exactly when and where I used a tollroad. Convenient, but expensive and a bit eerie from a privacy standpoint. 3) The money to build it will almost certainly come in whole or in large part from foreign entities, who would then get to retain most of the toll revenue. This is in stark contrast to our Turnpike, which spends toll revenue from older, paid-off roads to fund widenings, new ramps and new roads, but only within Florida. 4) The OB will incorporate and toll existing free roads and trips. Much has been made of plans to tear down the Shands Bridge to force river crossers to pay tolls. However, it is not widely known that all Brannen Field drivers would have to pay tolls as well. A trip from Blanding to I-10, now free, will cost $2-$3 each way. This would severely impact FCCJ, Cecil Commerce Center, Oakleaf Plantation, and many Middleburg-area commuters. The newly widened 4-lane 65 MPH section north of Argyle as well as the new 4-lane section and I-10 Interchange now under construction, both built with almost $100 million tax dollars, would be leased to the PPP players and tolled for 50-100 years. Contractors and boatowners towing trailers should plan on tolls double what I cite elsewhere here. 5) The OB will remove some existing access and connections. It will no longer be possible to travel from US 17 to route 13 via route 16. Trips to St Augustine from Clay county will come to include a 2 mile detour to the south, a $2-$3 toll each way, and back-tracking on the St John's side. There are already "Access to SR 23 is temporary" FDOT signs along Brannen Field. Those mean exactly that. The OB will turn those present intersections into overpasses and detours, followed by toll payment. 6) The hope that we locals will obtain free or substantially reduced toll passes is comforting but fatally flawed. Despite the OB connecting I-10 to I-95, both common sense and traffic studies agree that through traffic will largely shun the expensive and circuitous OB. Both the Buckman and the recently widened Fuller Warren combined with a greatly improved I-10 / I-95 interchange downtown will provide good, direct and free alternatives to long haul traffic for decades to come. Truckers and other long haul drivers know to time their travel to avoid rush hour congestion, so they will very rarely divert to the OB and pay the toll. The OB is all about serving commuters, so it is we, not they who will be asked to foot a $2.2 Billion bill.
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Submitted by OneMann on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 12:44pm.
Nice, concise presentation of the ever-morphing Outer Beltway plans, Engineer. If during the night some lobbyist for a road paving company has figured out a way to have Clay County taxpayers cough up the entire $2 billion to build this thing, I hope you'll update us the next morning. It's quite possible Clay County will reap some increase in its industrial tax base as a result of the Outer Beltway as it is currently configured, but that's probably closer to two decades away than one. In the meantime, it will only exacerbate the problems county government has yet to solve. Looking at the short- and long-term effects and potential of the Outer Beltway, it is difficult to see any Clay County citizens it will actually benefit. Except, of course, large landowners and developers, but what's new about that? All that, and an additional $4-6 in tolls plus wasted gas to go see the Bridge of Lions again. Michael S. Mann
Submitted by lilyslore on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 12:48pm.
Wow, what a missive. Thanks to Engineer for this epistle. We really need to get the word out and register our disapproval. I plan on copying Engineer's posting and sending it to Charlie Crist. Let's see if he continues with his pledge to help the citizens of Florida against new taxes. I hope he doesn't try to squirm out of this. After all, doesn't FDOT report in some way to the chief executive of the state? I have often espoused my deep antipathy to government mind sets and this example is just one more reason for it. And to the supporters of this travesty, "If you don't like things the way they are and want more taxes shoved down your throat, move to New York. You'll be very happy there." Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman Submitted by semiredneck on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 1:36pm.
Everyone needs to be aware of this. I'll certainly make sure a number of people read of this shaemful rape of the commuter. I wonder if they will toll people exiting St Johns for hurricanes now that they are limiting another method of egress? Submitted by read44 on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 1:54pm.
Helpful information. If you click on the map on the right hand side you can then see the larger picture of the map.
Submitted by 3claykids on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 2:51pm.
Engineer said "The hope that we locals will obtain free or substantially reduced toll passes is comforting but fatally flawed." Several people have told me that residents will get free toll as if it's a done deal, and it seems I read it recently here. I don't attend meetings or read minutes the way you folks do. Who's making these promises? Do they actually have the power to make it happen, or are they just going to suggest it and say, "Well we tried, but it just won't work. Sorry"? I use Brannan Field far too often to be satisfied by empty gestures. Submitted by Clayscrubdweller on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 6:35pm.
ok, ok, I promised I wouldn't get drawn into this goat roping, but I can't help it, Mr. Engineer is a very knowledgable person and writes exceptionally well, us "Engineering Types" are taught to be succinct and specific in our pontifications and we are also well versed in the ways of verbal mind manipulations. So, in a good "Value Engineering" or TQM type analysis, let us approach a point-counterpoint discussion very directly and with step by step discussion. 1. The price of tolls is going to be set and controlled by FDOT in cooperation with the operators of the facilities, will they increase over the years? very probably, doesn't everything? The issue of the transponders is close, but no cigar. I have and I am sure others have used the turnpike down south without a transponder and I was not required to purchase one. Another point missed in the previous discussion; there is now a technology that allows the use of a credit card sized barcode/transponder, which is quite inexpensive and almost invisible among all the hardware and signage on most vehicles. Lastly, if tolling is so bad, why would Mr. Engineer invest in a Transponder and pay the tolls, I have never been anywhere in this country or this state that didn't provide more than one way to get into any part of the city, although probably very indirect. It would appear that Mr. Engineer, by using his own tolling experience, is actually disputing his claim that people are not going to pay the money for the convenience and if it is worth the investment to him, why would it not be to the Over The Road (OTR) truck drivers? 2. Now let's explorer his contention that OTR trucks will not use the OB, but will opt for the direct I-95 to I-10 route. It is apparent to me, an exOTR, 18 wheeled truck driver, that he has no direct experience in this area. With current technology installed in tractor-trailor rigs, the dispatcher/owner of the OTR truck and driver, has very good control and visibility of where his truck and driver are at all times; as a result of this technology (GPS and on-board computers and transponders) drivers are given specific dispatch times and a very closely controlled arrival time. Most arrival times are in the early mornings (6-9 a.m.). If you leave Daytona and are going to the Cecil Commerce Center and your delivery time is 8:00 a.m., it takes two hours to get there from your terminal in Daytona using the OB and it is a shorter route than I-95 to I-10. Because of "Rush hour traffic", the I-95 to I-10 interchange is going to be constrained from about JTB all the way to I-295, you will also need to compete with the St. Augustine rush hour traffic, the resultant impact to your travel time is probably in the neighborhood of 45 extra minutes of travel time and additional fuel costs of over $3.00 per gallon with fuel consumption of around 8 mpg. Which route will you take? I know, I have been through these scenarios in Chicago, New York/New Jersey and other places around our fine country, bouncing on top of 18 wheels. I always opted for the toll facilities when allowed; the Penn. Turnpike, New Jersey Turnpike, I-294 toll road in chicago, etc. 3. Now let's discuss the tolls for the current and future residents of SR-23 the new OB. What is not mentioned is the "Free Service Roads" that will parallel the southern portion of the OB in clay county to SR-21. If you are one of the residents currently living or are planning on moving to one of the residences currently located in this area or are planning on building in this area, there will be two options for you, take the frontage roads to a non-toll road such as SR-21 (Blanding Blvd) or take the frontage road to a toll facility to get onto the OB; you are provided an option. 4. Let's consider for a moment another element that Mr. Engineer is not aware of or has failed to mention; the increase in container traffic coming from the new Asian Terminal by the Dame's Point bridge and the just finallized facility to be developed by Hanjin on the west side of the Dames Point Bridge. There will be literally thousands of new containerized cargos being transported out of Jacksonville to all points West, North and South. I- 295 is already at a marginal Level Of Service (LOS) in the northern areas of it's existance; the modeling process brings it and the I-95 to I-10 interchange to a very low failing LOS when you introduce this additional traffic into the model. If the plans to expand the industrial base in NE Florida by building up Cecil Commerce center come to fruition, it follows that a large amount of this traffic will flow out of the Northside of Jacksonville and down to Cecil Commerce center, so thinking in a regional sense, this should have a dramatic impact of the flow of traffic down the OB. 5. Mr. Mann expresses frustration over the lack of positive impact that the OB will have on the economy of Clay County. Let us examine opportunities we have already missed and/or squandered as a result of lack of infrastructure. There have been a number of industrial opportunities lost in the old Food Lion Facility and the Reynolds Park area because the highway sytem was insufficient to carry the volumns of traffic they required. One of the biggest losses was (I am not sure of the spelling) Sysco or Cisco, they wanted to build a huge distribution center in Clay county, however, when they looked at the infrastructure, they said: no thanks. They have almost finished building that distribution facility in Alachua; it is about a million square feet and will employe hundreds of workers at around $15.00 and hour. Would that be benefit enough Mr. Mann? Wal-Mart also built their distribution center in Alachua, over a million square feet and hundreds of $15.00/hr jobs. We do not live in a micro enconomy any longer, we are in a regional and even global economy, so we need to open our senses to dynamics and influences beyond clay county. 6. Let's explore the cost factor of tolls versus "Free" roads. It doesn't take Rocket Science to add up the numbers; you get better gas mileage when traveling at constant, reasonable, highway speeds than through stop and go, bumper to bumper traffic. Further for a large majority of citizens located along the beltway, the OB will be a straighter commute, hence shorter distance; better gas mileage, shorter distance, will that equate to enough savings to offset the toll, that remains to be seen, I don't think I know any "Engineer" (and I know a lot of them) or even a rocket scientist who can answer that question definitively, although it would seem to support a potential savings based on intuitive analysis. 7. The last point (I promise) is the evacuation of St. Johns county. It is agreed to, all the way up to Tallahassee, that during an evacuation of St. Johns county, the OB will not collect tolls and will in fact be closed to all but westbound traffic, thereby creating an egress from the beaches area of 4 to 6 lanes of traffic, depending on which cross section is built. Let's recap: Tolls are being paid all across the nation for the convenience of stressfree and/or shorter travel times, Mr. Engineer himself participates in this activity. Tolls will probably go up continually as does everything. Trucks will probably use the OB if it is more cost effective and/or shorter with less "4 wheeler conflict". There is going to be a significant increase in "Containerized traffic which will greatly impact I-95 and I-10 thereby driving truck traffic to the OB We have lost some significant employeement opportunities because of lack of infrastructure There is provisions for "Free" travel down the Brannen Field corridor via "Frontage Roads" The building and management of the toll facility will be by a foreign corporation, probably partnered with an American firm, no one knows the length of the contract, but most scenarios are in the neighborhood of 30 years Egress from the beaches during evacuation situations will be via the OB with all lanes west bound and free One more thing, Engineering types never answer questions in a brief, or condensed format, it is either very cryptic or verbose, you can guess my style. The last thought; whether you are pro or con on the OB, never take what you see here as the whole and complete truth, investigate, get informed and question, question question. Question data, question motives and question content. I am all through talking now! Submitted by Angela on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 7:42pm.
I just asked for my free passes to cross the Shands Bridge. So when will all the residents of Clay County and St. John's get our free passes to cross the Bridge. It's free now it should be free after we get finished pandering to our landowners and developers that have harmed our quality of life in this county. I loved #3 dump them on Blanding the same thing our Commissioners have been doing for how many years now. 15.00 a hour jobs working for Walmart. I think we have them now. Hasn't helped the traffic much out here and we have a Walmart on every corner. I hope those people in those neighborhood like the look of Blanding and 295 and that high crime area with homeless people asking for money on the ramps. It will be coming to your neighborhood soon, complete with neighborhood Motels. You know where they have those reverse prostitution stings by JSO. Maybe if you are lucky you'll get one of those big old truck stops like they have off Commonwealth. With all the trucks they say will be coming here. I would just like my free passes for the Shands Bridge. Submitted by Clayscrubdweller on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 8:44pm.
Angela, You are very good at gleaning information to support any contention you have about any subject you have an opinion about. You have read the discussion from Mr. Engineer, a very knowledgeable and articulate person and my subsequent discussion. From these discussions and recognizing the concerns and issues involved; would you please take each point and give us a workable solution to address these concerns. A very high level POA&M (Plan of Attack and Milestone) that anyone could execute to address these areas of concern would be nice. A person of such wonderful researching talents should be able to formulate workable, executable solutions to the problems you are so knowledgeable about. Inquiring minds want to know Submitted by Angela on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 8:48pm.
I will give you one answer. #1- 10 year moratorium on building in Clay County.
Submitted by 3claykids on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 9:50pm.
It's nice to think that I'd have a free service road to use as an alternative;however my experience of such roads alongside a nice interstate quality road, such as 595 in Broward, is that the service road is miserable by comparison, less maintenance, more and more lights. My current drive up Brannan Field is not, but I'd have to pay in the future for such a luxury, no? What free service road option will there be for the Shands? Submitted by Clayscrubdweller on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:08pm.
Angela, I am sorry, I don't see the correlation. A moratorium on building is not a bad idea and I believe that a large portion of clay county residents would support something akin to that, but, how would that impact all the issues in the OB discussion? How would we address egress from the beaches during emergency evacuations? I don't know if you were here during any of those exercises, it was horrific! How will we address the additional traffic constraints brought on by the impending containerized traffic which will back up Blanding and US-17 south of I-295? The loss of potential economic opportunity due to lack of infrastructure would be helped how with this moratorium? By the way, I am sure you have seen the figures, the highest paying jobs, per capita, in clay county are in the building community, where will those people work. I believe that the over 200% of available residential opportunities in clay county do call for closer scrutiny. If we were to reach build-out of all available opportunities, how would all the people move around the county? But the OB, is not specifically linked to building houses. It is the chicken and the egg, however in this case, most people who have done the research believe that the egg (the OB) will bring the chicken (JOBS). This by the way is not the developers talking, they are not as concerned about jobs as getting a return on their investment in terms of selling houses. There have been numerous studies all over the world that can show the nexus between advanced, highspeed thorough-fares and the development of industry. If you were to study cities such as Philadelphia, the City Line expressway is where the IT community flourishes. In Washington D.C., everthing is tied to the "Beltway" most references about any industry in D.C. is prefaced with "Inside the Beltway" or "Outside of the Beltway", btw, inside the beltway is where most of the power resides. Please give us the benefit of your wonderful analytical skills and research capabilities and see if you can find an executable plan for the OB issues previously discussed.
Submitted by Clayscrubdweller on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:29pm.
3Kids, That is an interesting question. Since the OB is currently a State road (SR-23), I would assume that the frontage roads would be state maintained and therefore on a very good maintainence schedule. If however, they are considered county roads, "Heaven Help Us". There is literally almost no money for maintainence of the existing county roads and they are quickly falling into dis-repair. The passing of the property tax amendment is going to exacerbate the funding problems significantly. Our short sighted Governor has pandered to the populace of southern Florida and threw a huge monkey onto the backs of local governments. Most people are not aware that almost all transportation is funded through gasoline sales tax and although the price of gasoline is going through the roof, it just means that there is less gas tax dollars, because everyone, myself included, have cut back on travel and therefore are buying less gas. With less money for transportation, some transportation emergencies will need to be addressed with general funds usually reserved for other things like public safety, libraries, recreation, etc. So our shortsighted Governor and the Petroleum Terrorist are killing a lot of things in our county beyond the sad shape they were already in. My understanding of the Toll bridge which will replace the Shands is; they will offer either free or very low cost passes to people who live in one county and work in the other and in the last discussion I was aware of, this was also limited in scope by the geographical location of the residence and/or workplace. Submitted by Angela on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 10:42pm.
The Outer Beltway is being built to support all the roof tops of Saratoga Springs and several other DRI's (developments of regional impact) that are slated for building in the very near future. The industry will look just like Fleming Island after they go in there and change the landscape. Just like they did in Fleming Island. By that I mean low wage paying service and retail jobs. Maybe you could bring us up to speed on the study that Reinhold applied for recently when everyone was distracted about the Ravines. He was just too excited for me about his Outer Beltway and what effects that will have on his properties. As far as the containers coming in and on our roadways. Maybe you should contact Governor Bush about CSX he seemed to have some plans he wasn't sharing with everyone else. http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/16/bz-gov-crist-shouldnt-let-csx-railroad-open-govern/ How about telling those builders to sit in the traffic on Blanding and Hwy 17 on their way into Jax with the rest of us and maybe they will understand how we feel for a change. I know it was a simple solution to a complex problem of not being able to pander in your mind. No need to make it harder than it has to be. Because I see it as a real simple solution the moratorium. It would benefit all of the citizens in the county and give us a chance to fix some of the problems that have been created by our Commissioners who should have consider if they were worthy to continue to serve the citizens. Evidently they felt different than the citizens and stayed. You know you would benefit from the New Cornerstone report and reading that fine peice of work too. Until then I say a moratorium is the only solution, and I think I could get our county to back that idea. Submitted by margo on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:01pm.
Clayscrubdweller- I commend your well reasoned questions and your attempts to request a well reasoned and "executable" answer from Angela. I have since given up on Angela providing any real solutions for our County besides casting stones and decrying "conspiracy" on every issue. I agree with you, and quite obviously, a moratorium simply does not address the traffic flow and economic development issues addressed by the beltway. Those are the issues that demand scrutiny. I think you are in the ballpark of real solutions. Submitted by Angela on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:09pm.
Wonder where all our transportation funds are going to. So we the taxpayers carry the burden and have to build the roads rights. Maybe somebody needs to be asking some questions. You have to love the FDOT they are looking out for the taxpayers.
Submitted by 3claykids on Wed, 01/30/2008 - 11:15pm.
I wouldn't qualify for the toll reduction, but I am still curious about who has proposed and accepted such an arrangement. Are the investors who are looking to bid on this $2 billion road going to be beholden to this plan? People are talking about ...Here are the recent blog postings with the most comments. |
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My humble gratitude for your blog. Well said and written.
Stunningly poor judgment by our elected officials for their decision to allow this to happen to the taxpayers of this county. Just to appease some of the landowners and developers in our area and for them to continue to make money at the detriment to the citizens.
For those of us who depend on the likes of Blanding and Hwy 17 daily to commute has the potential to flood those roads even more with those who cannot afford the increase cost of gas and tolls to commute each day just to work.