OP zoning change and the Ravines

Finder,

I've been told a sign was posted down by the Clubhouse but I haven't seen it.  What I can tell you that EVERY OTHER TIME Jacksonville Golf applied for a change it was always posted at the entrance to the s/d.  So we didn't have the notice we had before, we were given the Weasel Version.

That whole thing in OP was unessecary, they could have given that group a variance to operate there rather then changing the zoning across the board.  Someone has something else up their sleeve.

Marsha,

As I hear it, your husband ws trying to negotiate with the RGCC investor to build homes on the golf course.  How do you respond?

Marsha,

As I hear it, your husband ws trying to negotiate with the RGCC investor to build homes on the golf course.  How do you respond?

I don't know who you are but you obviously joined the site to make this challenge.  My Husband and his Investment Group are not negotiating with anyone at the moment, and even when we were residential development inside of the Ravines was never part of the plan.  In fact we have never negotiated anything with anyone in the State of Florida for residential development.  We were at one time negotiating to purchase a course in St Marys and part of that was residential development. 

Our business plan for the Ravines was to expand the Resort for which there would have been no land use or zoning changes required.

We do not plan to bid at the Auction due to the fact that the Trustee is trying to get more then the property is worth.  Should the property revert to the bank we will then consider bidding in order to protect the community from someone who wants to develop houses or otherwise adversely affect our property values.

You heard wrong,

Livin

I'm sure you don't realize that you are repeating yourself. Marsha has responded and might not take kindly to the appearance of being badgered.

Would you mind telling me just what RGCC means?  I don't know who this is.  If you are the man who was standing so close behind me I could hear you breathe in the lobby just outside the hearing room on Tuesday evening at the PC meeting. Then you were listening to a conversation mostly between my Husband and a man named Ray who is an interested investor.  They were looking at plats and discussing the adjacent land to the Ravines off Green Rd.  Anyone who owns the Ravines is a potential buyer for that land along with anyone else in the world. Plus the fact that an astute business man such as Fred is going to be interested in any property adjacent to anything he invests in, it's called due diligence, ever heard of it?  So if you're this man then in your eavesdropping you got the wrong message.

If you are not this man then you are someone with an agenda.  You're hiding behind a user name, I am completely prepared to put my full name in this blog and you can go check me out with the State of Florida under the Division of Business and Professional Regulations.  Would you care to reveal yourself also?  

What's wrong with joining this site to challenge or comment on articles? How/why did you join?

I asked you to respond to what I heard, that is my way of hearing both sides of a story. If more people went to the 'source' rather than spreading infectious rumor, The Ravines may not be in the situation it is now in.

I will bet that there are investors looking into buying the RGCC and in their plans are to build homes, condos, APARTMENTS to supplement the costs of running a G&C club. I saw documents that show the RGCC has not made a profit for the last 3 owners at least. Ever wonder why it keeps changing hands? If you have a successful and profitable business, why would you let it go?

I read in official documents (not hearsay) that DeBusk wanted to build 63 high end homes along Black Creek by re-designing holes 7 and 9 to free up the land along Black Creek. Yet, I saw a petition that was submitted by residents that said DeBusk wanted to make the course into a 16 hole course and build 150 tract homes (I don’t remember the actual number).

I would certainly like to see that (the 63 luxury homes) rather than what will probably happen to this dilapidated property now.

How much do you think the property is worth? How much to rehabilitate the course back to it’s beauty of 10 years ago? How much to run the RGCC at a profit in order to avoid building on the property? You are a ‘Real Estate Expert’…please share your thoughts.

How will the RGCC sustain itself? Really, I would like to know. There is a spread sheet floating around that shows it hasn’t seen a profit in years, at least since the Japanese owned it and sold a bunch of memberships to overseas investors. I know that this neighborhood can’t support it alone. More of the residents DON’T play golf than DO.

Do they sponsor big events? What impact does that have on the residents on Ravines Rd? Remember the speed bumps? How many of those speeders were non-residents heading for the club? Imagine a PGA tour. Where would spectator park? I worked for a major sponsor of TPS Sawgrass and volunteered at the event 3 years…WOW! Lot’s of people.

Finally, another question for you as a ‘Real Estate Expert’, I value your professional opinion. How is it possible that a G&C Club that is not part of the actual residential community is figured into the value of a home that is not actually located on the course itself? I have looked at hundreds of appraisals on homes in The Ravines and I see no mention of the golf course…except, of course, the homes that are on the fairways. The appraisals I have seen all indicate Gated & Deed Restricted Community as a plus. Isn’t The Ravines still a gated and deed restricted community?

I am not an expert in Real Estate, so I appreciate and value your expert insight.

New to site & blogging.  Didn't think it was working.  I certainly don't want to appear to be badgering anyone.  Sorry to all.

Marsha, thanks for responding to the original post so quickly!   

Sorry, thought RGCC was a commonly known term as I have seen it used before in other documents.

Marsha, I am not hiding any more than Finder, CCC, Pioneer or anyone else that is posting. I don't know why you are getting so defensive about a simple question. My intention is not to attack you but rather get your side.

I am not your 'breather guy'.  I wasn't even at the meeting as I know they are just a waste of time for everyone but those who are in (so called) power.

I am not attacking you, I am coming to you for answers as you are the most outspoken person on this entire subject.  I figured you are the one to get answers from.  When I heard the info I posted to you (or is it echoed to you) earlier I made an effort to get your side of the story.

Agenda?  Yes, just like anyone else who 'blogs'.  If you have no agenda, you don't post your comments on a public site.

I would have liked to see the golf course remain in it's full glory like anyone else who has lived in clay for any length of time. But is it really in the cards anymore?

No where will you find that I have ever claimed to be an "Expert" in Real Estate, and your continuous reference to that and the subtle sarcasm is noted.  If you are not Ken Debusk himself then you're obviously a member of the family or the Bankruptcy Possee. 

I will not debate suppositions as to the course making money, or the authenticity of spread sheets that float.  I will not discuss what I've been told about the books. I can only say if it was losing money then you had three idiots in a row.  I can only say that perhaps it was not a question of making money but how much money is enough.  How much is enough depends on your needs and your greed.  Businesses are run into the ground everyday from incompetence or intent. 

I am a Residential Appraiser, not a commercial one.  However USPAP ( Uniformed Standards of Appraisal Practice) are just that, uniform to all Appraisers.  The rules are the same.  As a Appraiser when I give an opinion of value I generally get paid for it, and have liability for it so you will forgive me unknown user if I don't give you a Professional Consultation in the Blogs.  If you are looking at Appraisals in Golf Course Communities and that fact is not mentioned then you are looking at Appraisals that are in violation of USPAP.  I will not address the work of another Appraiser other then that. I am not going to discuss details of a business plan here in the blogs.  We have some highly unique and exciting plans that we're not going to give away.  If we cannot implement them here then perhaps some where else some other time. Or perhaps we will sell the Business Plan. 

You're not looking to silence a rumor, you're looking to cause problems.

Is it for me personally because I am here in the blogs or is it my Husband you're trying to take a pot shot at?

My email is open, you could have written to me if you were sincerely addressing a rumor you wanted to clear up.  Yours is blocked.

All of this is moot, the course is in Bankruptcy, the Covenants & Restrictions protect the course, the BCC has a duty to uphold those C&R's. We will not give up and we will not give in. That's my focus and I am not going to waste time on your challenges.  If we ever get to the point where we do buy it, if you have a "need to know"  like being a resident, we'll fill you in.

There are a great many people interested in buying this place, and we don't stand out in the crowd the least little bit so why you're shining the light on us I do not know.

I blog about the Ravines because I live here, I have an investment here, not because I want to own it so I am not going to debate anyone over anything other then my rights as a Homeowner. 

I don't how to say this except to say it.  Marsha, if your husband and you or even friends of yours are considering buying this property, then there is a personal agenda that goes beyond being a resident and looking out for the "good of the community."  The agenda is this:  you need to make sure that the county doesn't change the zoning so that you can keep the value of the property as low as possible, making it cheaper for future investors.  That's good business, and I don't blame any potential owners for taking that strategy.  But I do think that it's fair to discuss whether that strategy is what is best for that community.  It looks like that is what this guy called Livin is trying do, figure out if that strategy is what is best for the community.  

I don't live out there, I don't have an agenda.  Just an observation.  

Our attempts to buy the course were before it went into Bankruptcy, right after Jacksonville Golf closed it's doors and it was put on the market.  We put an offer before BoA and the SBA, Jacksonville Golf filed for Bankruptcy and all plans stopped. You  suggesting that it is our intent to drive the value down is not true and I resent the implication of it.  My husband and I never even got involved in trying to stop Jacksonville Golf from anything other then the original intent to build on the old Par 3 which is a construction landfill.  We did not participate in anything else up until this latest one where he tried to get a land use change and develop a protected course.

Stan you dont know me and you don't know my husband and I don't appreciate the accusation, and that is what it is. Ethically we CANNOT participate in the things you are suggesting.  Just like Livin, Livin didn't ask about a rumor, he made a statement, and an accusation in his blog title. 

Marsha:  You said to Livin that you guys are still interested in buying the property or maybe selling a business plan for the property to a future owner.  Now I think that you are saying that you aren't interested anymore and that was all in the past.  OK. 

If you guys are still interested, though, then there is a personal interest that is different than the interest of the community.  That's just a fact, not an accusation.  Now if you don't allow that personal interest to affect your decisions, then I guess that's good. You say it doesn't affect your decisions, so that's good.   

Stan at the moment that property is in limbo, and despite the best laid plans of mice and men it will remain in limbo until it isn't.   We set something up a year ago and it didn't work. Could it still work, yes, are the people who said they would back him still in place yes and that is the sum total of where it is.   I said early on today after Livin made the first entry that we are not in active negotiations with anyone and have not been for several months.  We're waiting like alot of people out there are waiting, actively doing nothing other then opposing anything that expands the PUD or changes the course.  

Being a supporter for Hometown Democracy doesn't really bode well for my profession. Growth keeps an Appraiser employed yet I have signed the petition and supported it because I believe it's what best for the state. Most all people in the Real Estate Profession are against Hometown Democracy because it will cut into their income and standard of living.   

We moved here because it wasn't crowded, that would not change if we had a business interest here.  Call me Ripley and believe it or not.

Livin' - as with all newcomers, welcome to "The Sun".  Today, it is shining brightly.  This Ravines story is gaining full-blown soap opera status.  Boy, am I glad I was able to dump my swampy lot on Creek Hollow when I did.  WHEW!

If I were involved in some effort to buy a large tract of land that was formerly a beautiful golf course, and that purchase may require a land use change for further developent, I'd be damn glad there was no such thing as a HTDA.  It's going to be hard enough to convince 5 (or 7) BCC members to vote for it.  Imagine having to convince an entire Planning District (or County, or State - I don't know) that it is a good idea.  Good Luck.  It wouldn't add any more cost to the project would it?

Yo, Livin in Clay! If I'm hiding, I'm hiding in plain sight.

If you read enough of my comments and look at my signature, there is enough information there that anyone that is really interested in knowing who I am could find me.

Hey, you want to take on Marsha go right ahead. I don't have a dog in that fight so leave me out of it.

However, I would give you some friendly advice or a precautionary comment. I think you may be stepping into a battle of wits where you are sorely out classed. From what I've seen so far you're at a mandatory nine count. You might want to step to a neutral corner and get your trainer to do some quick work on those wounds.

Next round, you might try doing a little better job of bobbing and weaving. George Foreman you ain't.

MikeH

What about this? 

You have just won the lottery.  You want to buy a golf course in Clay County and you want it to be one near the water with a unique character and history.  Zoning and PUD numbers are not an issue in fantasy land.

What is next?

Do you:

1.  Build homes only on what is known as the old Par 3?

2.  Build homes on the old Par 3, some on the golf course and reconfigure the golf course?

3.  Build a new clubhouse with better party/meeting facilities?

4.  Lease out the restaurant to someone who can cook?

5.  Add a fitness center?

6.  Build more town homes?

7.  Close the golf course and build only homes?

8.  Build homes on one acre lots?

9.  Build homes on half acre lots?

10.  Build as many homes on one acre as possible?

11.  Build no new homes?

12.  Improve the golf course grounds?

13.  Build a resort-style hotel and advertise?

14.  Require all golf course lot owners to be members of the golf club?

15.  Require all Ravines homeowners to be members of the golf club?

16.  Sell the golf course to the homeowners?

17.   Let the golf course go back to nature completely and never hear another discussion about The Ravines again? (Like that would happen)

You have the money, what do you do?  Make your selections or add your own ideas.

You know the kind of things about the Ravines that catch my attention. If anyone bought that business and a bank backed that loan for the present owner that has lost money with the 2 prior owners as has been discussed on here. Then they are not a smart bank and I wonder how they sold that deal to their investors. Unless maybe he told them he would be converting the properties as an investment.

You know other things that just spark that little thing that says boy something here looks funny.

Like we give 40K dollars to Florida's First Coast Golf for advertisement with TDC funds but on their website which is required by law I don't see that TDC funds provided by Clay County disclaimer. This was discussed at a BCC meeting and the man appeared and stated that would be changed. I would encourage anyone to go to the Florida's First Coast Golf website and see if you can find that information. Yet we have no golfers in Clay County.

Why are we wasting Tourist Dollars on this investment if we have no return on that investment?

The DCA (Dept of Community Affairs) hit our Comp Plan for tourist impact and the fact we have no roads in Clay County as we all know.

Who's making these decisions in our challenged county?

Why can't the Ravines be successful unless you don't want it too.