Warning! Disclaimer!

Lest any one thinks I make false charges or a tempest in a tea cup, I would direct them to the web site, nsf.gov/statistics/indicators.  It is a report on the condition of scientific knowlege of people & children in this country compared to other countries.  We seem to be sliding down. 

Briefly, the report pubished by the National Science Board, an oversight agency for the National Science foundation, found:

Surveys of science & mathematics education are "disappointing & encouraging," in that there has been improvement in mathematics but not science.

"Many Americans remain ignorant about much of science, the board said.  Many are unable to answer correctly when asked whether Earth moves around the Sun."  (Still think that science isn't important?)  (The comment is mine)

"They are not noticeably more ignorant than people in other developed countries except on two subjects, evolution & the Big Bang.  Although these ideas are organizing principles underlying modern biology & physics, many Americans do not accept them."

"These differences probably indicate that many Americans hold religious beliefs that cause them to be skeptical of established scientific ideas," the report said, "even when they have some basic familiarity with those ideas."

Not a very pretty picture of us, or our future.  We are falling behind folks.  We are failing the future of our children & our country.  We should be better than that.

RichK

Rich,

How dare you try to drag this County/State into the 21st century?

Many are unable to answer correctly when asked whether Earth moves around the Sun.

Many more probably can't tell you the difference between rotate and revolve, nor answer whether the earth rotates East to West or West to East.

But then, I'm not real impressed with the mathematic capabilities of today's students either. If the cash register didn't tell them how much money to give back, I'd wager 90% of them couldn't make change.

MikeH

... this does not prohinbit them from growing up to be Pageant Contestants from South Carolina or Pope.

Finder, I was most disturbed when McDonalds was so confounded with moron employees that rather than demand more competent help that threw in the towel and placed pictures of foods to press rather than numbers when determining the price of a meal. Never mind just making change.

I still believe there are far better students, young people, what have you, that are bright and yearning to learn. I am off to teach a sixth grade class today. If I thought it was all for nothing, I certainly wouldn't do it.

By the way, Rich, what is this Fleming Island High School thing you mentioned? And exactly where is FIHS?

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Finder & Lily,

Finder, I do confess to being a trouble maker & rabble rouser, especially when something like the present & future of the country is at stake.  You & Lily are correct on all points.

Lily, FIHS stands for Fleming Island High School.  The school board is meeting there tonight for the purpose of determining science standards.  I still can't believe that the word"evolution" is not used.  The meeting will be at 7 PM in the Teacher In-service Center, 2233 Village Square Parkway that is connected to FIHS.  (I'm getting this directly from the letter to the editor in the MCS today)  If you wish to speak at the meeting, make sure you fill out on of the green cards at the entrance.

Matt Soergel had a story @ this in todays TU, page one, metro, 01.17.08.  It is a follow up to the story run @ a week or so ago in the TU.  Once again, some people should be given a gift of a calender.

RichK

I knew the title would catch your attention.  I'm picturing you protesting in an ape suit outside the door!

Rich - Seriously, I think most people who oppose this base it on the fact that the "Sunshine Standards" state that evolution will be presented as "the fundamental concept underlying all biology..." 

That, my friend, is not true, say what you want about science, objectivity, etc... but evolution is not THE fundamental concept of biology.  With some rewording, this would not even receive a hiccup except from the radical conservative Christians.  I am a Christian, and don't believe I evolved from Planet of the Apes for one second, but I do believe that man has evolved based on their surroundings - and still do.   

Here is the web address for the info, including a pdf file of the recommended resolution against the "sunshine standard."

http://www.clay.k12.fl.us/agenda/January%2017,%202008%20Regular%20Meeting%20on%20Thursday,%20January%2017,%202008/B03D2A5F-B575-43A7-B70A-BE24F9FCB671-3453236F-EB48-4E76-A987-035C7C20F5A6.HTM

CCC,

Thanks for the info. First, let me repeat my feelings.  I don't care what any person believes as far as religion is concerned.  They have that right, under law & I would be one of the first to defend it.  To me, separation is  secondary in this case.  You or anybody else has the right to believe they came about to the present in any manner you wish.  I agree with the "sunshine standard."

What I am adamantly opposed to is anything non scientific being taught as science.  Please remember, I come from a Roman Catholic background.  Catholic grade school, Catholic high school back in the sixties.  I only had to take basic science 101.  This kind of discourse never saw the light of day.  I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

I am also adamantly against those who rise & loudly proclaim, EVOLUTION IS ONLY A THEORY!  THERE ARE GAPS!  SCIENCE CAN'T EXPLAIN EVERYTHING!  Big woof.  As far as evolution goes, science has been the first to say they can't explain everything, yes there are gaps we can't explain at this time & it's always been called a THEORY.  In my humble opinion, those who shout out the above are nothing more than rabble rousing, inflamatory idiots.  Why?  Because they contribute nothing positive, they only inflame without informing & while denouncing science & the scientific system, they all too happily use & enjoy the benefits of science & technology 24/7/365.  That makes them hypocrits, which makes them idiots.

I was wondering when someone would bring up, "the fundamental concept underlying all biology."  We've been hearing a lot @ that lately.  But here's the funny thing.  As much as this phrase has been spread around, not one person that I've heard has offered an explanation as to what might be an alternative, yet alone something consisting of evidence.  How ironic. I'd be more than happy to listen to an explanation on that one

However I may disagree with your, or any one elses opinion or belief, I go with science & the law on this one.  It doesn't matter what you believe, but it does matter what you can prove.  And that is exactly what science is in the business for and has been doing, as others have not.  Providing proof.  Religion, philosophy or anything else is not their job.  But it seems that some people want to make applying their religion, their philosophy into science as their job.  In no uncertain terms, that can't be allowed to happen.

Keep those cards & letters coming in.  JATFUR.

RichK

Rich, while you're at the meeting School Board meeting tonight, you'll be hearing them discuss the placement of evolution in the public education process.  After the usual number of "Whereas's" it concludes like this:

"NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED by the School Board of Clay County,

Florida, that the Board urges the State Board of Education to direct the Florida

Department of Education to revise the new Sunshine State Standards for Science such

that evolution is not presented as fact."

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

Mike,

Thanks for the heads up.  If I get a chance to ask a question, it will be addressed to the school board asking if them why does it take such measures to state something that science has never said.  If one needs such measures, who has been saying that the THEORY of evolution is a fact?

As I stated, the claim has been expressed in recent times, most recently in the article in the TU today, but I have yet to see a name of a person, group or organisation attached to it.  Who ever said it was?  Has anyone out there noticed it?  I'd love to hear about it.  Once again, thanks.

RichK

Im biting my tongue on this one.....

Make it blessed day!

Steven P Munsey A+, MCP, IASO Orange Park | Green Cove Springs munsey13@comcast.net

The School Board adopted its Evolution Resolution, with a couple of minor changes in wording, by a 5-0 vote.  Instead of urging that it not be taught as fact, the Board's resolution now reads that evolution will be taught as theory.

It took about two and a half hours before the School Board reached its decision.  Before the vote, they seemed to think it was important to explain to everyone that approving the resolution wouldn't change anything, which begs the question:  Wasn't there anything more important the Board could be doing than endorsing a meaningless resolution?

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

Incompetence by committee. But see how hard we worked for our paycheck? The hours are killing us. We need to be paid more. 

MikeH

I sat through several boring speakers just to see our blogger friend say he was giving back his 3 minutes because his points had already been made.  That is way too genteel - are you sure you are not from Alabama? 

Interesting comments made last night -

Regarding "government at its finest" there finder - remember our elected officials are elected by - wow - us.  They reflect the surrounding society who elected them in the first place, not always represent, but reflect.  Funny how that works.

As we have been saying, this is a great time to make a change if you don't like the make-up of the "incompetence by committee." 

And remember - none of these decisions will stop the Earth from spinning. 

Life will go on, kids will still learn (depending on whether mom/dad are ever home but that is another story) and the kids will grow up, and have more kids, etc........

And next time I stay up to try to watch an 'exciting' meeting, our blogger friend better talk more, at least tell us some great stories about Chicago or something!

Got me there, CCC. Can't argue one word of that. All I can say is, I'll do my best to make sure my vote is for who I think will best serve us.

Sometimes it just comes down to you plays your cards and takes your chances. Then you hope for the best.

Oops, bad choice of words there. Someone might think I supported the vote on the card room. Which I did.

MikeH

Fellow Bloggers,

Last night I attended my first school board meeting... ever.  Whatever smuncey meant by his reply a few comments above, I think he was right.  Let me preface my remarks with a few things.  Regardless of how many comments I hear or read on any subject, on one side or another, I do get an impression but try to reserve judgement until I get some facts.

I did not come to this meeting for the purposes of promoting any separation principle because I knew it wasn't @ that.  Religion was injected into the discussion, but it was minor & I thought it was applicable & pertinent  to the discussion.

After actually being at this meeting, I have come to find out that many of the negative things I've heard & read @ the school board are true, apparently & especially @ the superintendent .  I woke up this morning still having an excruciating pain in one eye from what I had witnessed.  Let me give you my impressions.

I thought it a good thing that the board provided a program of topics  for the benefit of those in the audience.  I couldn't follow the darn thing to save my life.  Note to school board:  In the future, it would be beneficial if you refered to the topic/ number of what you are @ to discuss.  If you produce the program for the benefit of the audience, I praise you, but make it user friendly.

Also a good thing is the idea of having cards to be filled out by those who wish to comment on any topic.  Very organised.

The meeting opened with a prayer.  Apparently, considering what followed, the prayer was either totally useless or no entity was listening, or both.  While an advocate of separation, this was neither the time nor place to be militant, so I declined to bow my head & said nothing.

As is my Constitutional right, I did not recite the Pledge.  Lest any of you think me unpatriotic, I don't advocate loyalty pledges.  I rely on something more substantial.  I obey the laws, respect my fellow citizens & I pay my taxes.

I was ready for a long night because the subject for which I attended was fairly long down the list.  This was in addition to a number of awards to recognize the talents & accomplishments of selected teachers & students.  Oh well.  I think awards for teachers & students are really good things & didn't complain.

Much to my surprise, the topics went by more quickly than I thought possible.  I'm still not sure since I couldn't follow the program.  When it came time for the introduction of the resolution, there were 26 people who requested their three  minutes to comment which was mathematically calculated to come out as being over an hour of time.  The Chairman/ woman/ person of the board explained the rules & we were off to the races.

As with these blogs, I learned much from the various speakers.  All were passionate, most were fairly good at speaking in public & some were exceptionally well informed, due in part to a lot of experience coupled with advanced degrees in multiple subjects.  There were a couple of speakers who obviously had no idea of the scientific process or the difference between science & faith & didn't think it important enough to find out.  While I could easily see that they were Christian, I don't have enough evidence to label them as either members of the Christian right or as evangelicals.  That just wouldn't be fair or kosher.  All in all, the comments were informative, the board and audience patient & well behaved.  After these people were finished, a 10 minute break was announced & board discussion would proceed.  This is where the very, very ugly portion reard its ugly head.

I should say at this point, that I have never previously met any members of the board.  I have read @ them & seen their pictures in the papers. I don't know what their educational backgrounds are or what their qualifications are.  By & large, they seemed courteous & professional, on the surface.  The one solid impression with which I came away was that collectively, they don't have clue one as to what an effective decision making process involves.  Cases in point:

1.  There was a rumor or two going around as to the purpose of the topic & how it was presented to the board.  I won't repeat them as they are rumors & I'm not that kind of boy.

2.  It was mentioned by at least member that they were presented with the resolution rather late & did not have enough time to digest & discuss the contents & possible ramifications before the meeting.

3.  They determined that the whole point revolved around the introduction of one of two words, those being, concept & theory.  Apparently, not many could distinguish the fact that there is a difference between the two.  Also, very obviously, In a SCHOOL BOARD MEETING, being held in a SCHOOL, with LAPTOP COMPUTERS in abundance, no one could come up with a DICTIONARY to find out the difference & seemed not to care enough to find out.

4.  While religion was mentioned, I don't think that as IT WAS DISCUSSED, it was a major factor in the decission.  What any opinions of religion might have been PRIOR to the meetings, I don't know.  But I came away with the impression that it was a major factor.

5.  Two important factors, the inclusion of the words, concept or theory, was the big hang up.  Why?  Because no one knew the difference, apparently didn't have access to a dictionary & didn't care enough to find out.

6.  It was more than obvious that the superintendent, sorry, I forgot his name, did not have clue one as to what the scientific process involves, didn't care enough to find out & instead, seemed to prefer the absolutism of religious faith.

7.  At least one member, Mr. Bolla, recognised the problems that the board was facing & suggested an apparently novel idea to the board.  He suggested that the board table the resolution in order get more information, discuss the problems & in general, use a bit of common sense.  It fell on deaf ears.  He was in one part ignored & in another part, had his idea muscled out.  So this is how our tax dollars work. 

So, in spite of a deplorable lack of information, the lack of curiosity to research something that might effect thousands of students now, & in the future and possibly other barriers, (sorry, I lost count but I still have that stabbing pain in my eye just thinking @ it.  OY! the pain!) they went ahead to make a decision.  Some one please tell me that it was all a bad dream, a bit of bad meat that made me halucinate. 

Needless to say that after the meeting, complaints abounded within the audience as they discussed this deplorable display of the decision making process by supposed professional people.  I had to agree with the sentiments of one lady who said that after seeing this for the umpteenth time (you mean this is how they decide most of the time?  This is not the exception, rather it's the rule?) she said, "Screw the nice weather in the winter & the low taxes, I'm ready to move back to Connecticut."  I had to agree with her.

Comments.

Smuncey, as I said, you apparently knew more than I & were probably right in whatever it was you were alluding to.

OneMann, your lasts sentance sums it up nicely.

CCC.  I will kindly thank you not to associate me with any state like Alabama.  I learned my genteel manner & humor up north, in Chicago.  I thought you knew that.  And I thought we were blog buddies who had some respect for each others.  My word, sir.  Besides, I meant what I said.  You say that you were there so I think that you'll agree with the general quality of the speakers.  All I would have done was repeat the same thing.  Besides, I was only going to ask one question which would not take three minutes to ask.  And believe me when I say that if ever offered the opportunity to display my prowess in flapping my gums @ Chicago or anything else, I will.  You & the other bloggers should be well aware, by now, that I'm rather good at being a ratchet jaw.  I just didn't feel that this was the time or place.

Those are my impressions.  I can't wait to hear any other comments.  I wish I could say, "Thanks for the memories,"  but I just can't bring myself up to it.  Have a great weekend fellow bloggers.  I'm going to get an aspirin, some booze, illegal drugs, anything to get the pain out of my eye from that meeting.  JATFUR.

RichK

Though brief, the most entertaining part of the entire School Board discussion came when Bolla asked the Superintendent (soon-to-retire David Owens) why the word "theory" had been chosen for the resolution instead of "concept," the word used by the state to describe Darwinism.  Owens had already said he authored the change.

Unlike you, Rich, I've been fortunate enough to have seen the School Board in action before, so I recognize a straight line in this sitcom when I hear one.  And I wasn't disappointed.

With all the petulance you'd expect to see on the playground during recess, Owens just said that he wasn't going to answer why, that the resolution (and word chosen) is what it is, and that's what's gonna be voted on.

The camera operator, with perfect timing, cut from the defiant Owens to Bolla's close-up that featured an open-mouthed double-take straight from the Ricky Ricardo School of Facial Expressions.

And, yeah Rich, your first foray into the world of governing education didn't catch 'em on a particularly special night.  This is pretty much the way things are done at the School Board.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

Mike,

Thanks for refreshing my memory & the pain in my eye.  I forgot that.  I ask you to remember that I am an agnostic when I say that if this is normal operating procedure for Clay &/or Fl., god help us all.  JATFUR.

RichK

Solo -

I really did look forward to you being a ratchet jaw, but hey, maybe next time when they vote on whether to allow left handed lesbian liberal lunch ladies you will have your say.

It actually was slightly entertaining, and Solo - I watched it on TV (didn't know you were a TV star?) so missed the nuances. 

Seriously, my slant on this whole thing is that I am very, very glad I do not have any kids in school.  As for my grandchildren, God (and their parents) help them.

My only other slant is that I have only personally met two of the members, Wayne Bolla and one other who will remain unnamed.  I like Bolla, he is the real deal and I would vote for him as Superintendent any day. 

I noticed the only comment I have seen so far by Owens regarding the next Superintendent is that they should have experience as a principal.  Just wondering, but does that rule out any current board members?

Uncle Rich

Is there any doubt in your mind what the board members discussed during the 10 minute break last night after the public comment? These out of the Sunshine huddles have happened before, and could have been the case last night. At least Madam Chair did not return to the meeting after the break, resume the meeting, and say "We've decided...."

Before I get slapped for being off topic, I am just reminding bloggers that in 2005, that's exactly what happened at the February SB meeting. Hundreds of people showed up at at the SB meeting to show support for FIHS student Kelli Davis and speak. (Kelli wore a tuxedo for her senior picture. Sam Ward would not allow the picture in the yearbook, but did nothing to help Kelli when a faculty member was allowed to harass Kelli, etc...)

After a passionate public comment time, Madam Chair called for a 10 minute break. When the SB members resumed the meeting after the break, instead of a discussion of the issue, the Chair said "We've decided..." At the very least, those in attendance left with the feeling that the decision to back Principal Ward and David Owens was made in "huddle" during the off-camera break.

As a "frequent viewer" of the antics of Owens and certain entrenched board members over the last dozen years, last nights comedy does not surprise me at all.

Wayne Bolla, thanks for your efforts.

Rich, should you choose to participate from your arm chair or in person at future SB meetings, I welcome you to Clay County's Comedy Zone!

PS--Wouldn't you think that SOMEONE would have figured out that you don't need a dictionary for the definition of of those big 2 syllable words they were struggling over? Duh! Use your laptop! Better yet, don't vote if you're that confused. Even better, retire and let some new blood on the SB...

CCC,

I didn't know one could get this on TV.  What channel should turn to?  I've been on TV before, closed circuit & over the air, so no big woof.

If the lunch was ladies only, left handed, lesbian, liberal or otherwise, I would pass in the most genteel manner possible.  Went to a ladies luncheon once.  Thanks, but no thanks.  It's just not my cup of tea.  Not that there's anything wrong with that!

After only this one time, I would have to agree with you on Mr. Bolla.

I don't know anything @ Mr. Owens, but after only listening to him once, I would have to ask just what are the qualifications for getting on this kind of board & how are chosen?

Yeah, I'm glad I don't have any children in the system.  As stated, I try to reserve judgement until I have some kind of evidence.  But after this, I am starting to accept some of the negatives I've heard @ Fl., not just Clay County.  that's a bad thing.  JATFUR.

RichK

Rich, let's not start going Jason Robards about Florida.  There's still much, much more to like than dislike.  (Three-day winters are my favorite.)  Don't judge all us Florida folks by what goes on inside our government buildings.

The only qualification for School Superintendent, though, is the most votes on Election Day.

Pi, the Kelli Davis debacle was even worse than you recalled.  When the School Board returned from its backstage break, Carol Studdard (chairman then, as now) immediately read a prepared, written statement of the Board's consensus opinion.  How the hell that could have possibly happened without violating state law still baffles me.

By the way, School Board member Lisa Graham did use her computer to find the specific definitions of "concept" and "theory," but Superintendent Owens didn't want to waste the Board's time (in the midst of that 150-minute debate) by allowing her to read them.

Michael S. Mann

michaelsmann@comcast.net

Pioneer,

Your comments sparked another thought.  I knew that this meeting was not going to contain a question on religion, separation or even evolution v. ID.  It was @ wording, more specifically, the words, "concept," v "theory & whether evolution should be presented as fact.

On that thought, while discussing with people after the meeting, some were surprised when I said that I thought evolution should not be presented as fact.  I had to explain, & this is not the first time, that the theory of evolution is just that.  A theory.  Always has been & is now.  It is a theory that happens to be supported by a mountain of facts but because there are gaps, things that science can't explain yet, it should not be considered as a fact.  If that were true, then it would have to be called, the FACT of evolution.  There is a subtle difference, but a difference none the less.

On the problem with the two words.  The reason I knew @ the meeting in the first place was an e mail sent to me.  I took the time to jot down some notes on a question I wanted to ask, plus I looked up the definition of the word, concept & jotted it down also.  I have to wonder why those who are charged with making the important decisions could not have done the same.

In one way, I disagree with you.  If the decision is that important, over two words, one should use whatever means possible to get the facts, all the facts, even if that means consulting with someone who has a background in science.  It is a school, isn't it?  But yes, lap tops were there, so I'm in the state of confusion as apparently every body else within the geographical borders is.

Reminds me of an old television show, The Life of Riley.  William Bendix would be right at home here when he said, "What a revoltin' development."  JATFUR.

RichK

Mike,

No, of course I'm not going to blame or judge all Floridians.  I just notice that the longer I'm here, the more negative examples that are presented to me in fact. 

Are you sure the last name of the superintendent is Owens, not Gantry?

RichK

Now that I have my medication regulated, am lower than a snakes belly, and a moron, and oops a hypocrite why would you want to read my blog? Good question.....

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. [Heb. 11:1]

And maybe Owens last name isn't Owens but Darrow, Clarence Darrow that is.

The argument over evolution never ends. I would think that both sides of the argument might take note of that quote from Hebrews. You believe in what you believe because of your faith. Most beliefs are not anchored in what we see, they are anchored in what we believe and hope for.

Those who believe in evolution, actually the correct term is natural selection, believe in it by their faith. Those who believe in divine creation believe in it by that same term faith. It is always amazing to see how tempers flare when a person's core beliefs are attacked by someone. Darwin in the work "The Origin of Species" noted that those species of animals survived because they were selected by nature to survive. Hence the term natural selection. Darwin, the son of a doctor, wasn't cut out for medical school, so his father, an influential man, was able to get him birth on a ship called the HMS Beagle. His title was a naturalist. He was to study the animals and plants that were in nature in his ports of call. The fact he visited the Gallapagos Islands was pure luck. It was on the Beagle that he arrived at his theory. A theory only becomes fact when it is proved. Unless I slept the last 50 or so years, his theory is in fact still a theory. It is always amazing at how a school board functions. As a regular attendee of SB meeting for years, I noticed one thing. The board would spend countless hours on the language of a particular item, but would vote in 30 seconds to spend 30 million dollars. The spending of taxpayers money never was as important as the wording of a resolution or a motion. Especially if there was a highly agitated crowd.

Sidebar: My rant as some have called it was caused by a look at all the other "suns" in Jacksonville. Take a look at them, and you will see that our Clay county Sun certainly wins the prize for beating the same political issues to death. I will admit that the other blogs are really ho hum compared to Clay. I guess we must have many more politicos than the rest of the area.

Hi Islander glad to see you are feeling better.

I like to read all the blogs. Don't comment on them all but still like to read them.

long time lurker... etc

I attended the school board vote as my closest advisor (read: husband) alerted me to the agenda. As an educator, though no scientist, I balked and resolved to attend this meeting and all future ones as well. (shame on me for being a slacker)

A few observations: these may have been noted earlier in other blogs, if so I apologize for repetition.

1) Bolla is not terribly popular with his colleagues. He asks the questions no one wants to discuss. "Why don't we just ask for what we want, instead of an extension?" (paraphrase - regarding legislative priorities and class size) The others telegraph and, in the breaks, even flat out express their irritation with him.Over the last few years I have learned that this is an engineer's fate: to ask the hard or obvious questions, looking for an original answer. Good for him, morally, if not politically. Where can we requisition a few more?

2) David Owens dropped this resolution in the Board's lap with all the confidence of a man who ran unopposed for his seat and who is retiring any day now. He knew good and well what position he was putting the board members in. This was never going to go well: they can't tick off the religious right who rule by numbers, and they don't want to be the next punchline on Leno. He glibly urged them, "Just vote your conscience," complete with smug look. This was a patently unfair and unnecessary move, IMHO, yet he claimed Clay needed to voice an opinion about this move in the science standards.

3) County (Board?) attorney Bickner was asked to review the resolution. He stated that it came as close to the Katzmiller line as possible without crossing it -- wouldn't want to get sued. Further editing resulted. Owens and Chapman (also credited with the resolution) chose the wording carefully. It's close enough to the suggested language from First Baptist and friends to guess the origin (with or without Darwin). Nice to know we think for ourselves in Clay.

4)An oblique threat from one speaker in favor of the resolution: "If you think turning out a hundred is something, we'll have five hundred next time." (again, a paraphrase) and "I hear all these speeches with their nine syllable words.." re: the pro-evolution speakers -- anti-intellectualism at its best. Finally, "[If you let these people have their way] one of these days you'll turn around and Clay County won't be the place we know anymore." When studying argument, we call that an "ad populum" fallacy: assuming everyone present shares our ideals. Well done.

5) Our fearless (now lame duck?) superintendent concludes: "Evolution must have something to fear if it gets this much of a response." Again, a paraphrase, yet fairly faithful to intent. Surely he didn't mistake concern for the students' education as defense of a "faltering" theory?

Obviously if the churches who are threatened by evolution (as not all are) had had a running start over the weekend to call out the troops, it would have been a MUCH longer evening. Regardless, the board voted to encourage the state BoE to clarify that evolution is a theory. OK. Just like the Theory of Relativity. Ironically, local press covered it as support of evolution.

Please tell me that this time around at least a few people who are more interested in actual education will run for superintendent and school board. Please.

Islander,

Welcome back, hope all is well.  You're right on one thing.  I too, think the debate will not end any time soon.  Much to the detriment of society in general.  Also right on the mark with natural selection.  Natural selection is the specific manner by which evolution occurs.  Evolution has come into common usage for the entire process.

I am a bit stumped with your comparison of Owens to Clarence Darrow.  Darrow was an agnostic or atheist, I don't remember which.  That would put in complete opposition with Owens, who gives the impression, at least to me, of being a devout theist.

I would take one minor exception not specifically aimed at you, but society in general.  It's a relatively minor point, but even minor points deseve a shot at the light of day.  Technically, one can "believe," in evolution, as explained in any dictionary.  Unfortunately, in past times, belief has been equated within the scope of religious fervor.  (no deragatory intentions)  The two are quite different.  One of the beneficial by products of the theory is that it requires no religious type belief whatsoever.  It places no requirements, demands or threats upon a person.  You can accept it or not accept it.  You can agree with it or disagree.  A religious type belief is not only useless in this instance, it has usually turned out to be a hindrance & dividing point. 

As I stated, my first impression of a school board meeting does not cause me to wax lyrical on the process or the body.  JATFUR

RichK 

3claykids,

First, welcome to blog sand box. 

Second, judging by your comments, you would seem to be an ideal candidate.

That was not an insult.  Far from it.  You have my vote.  JATFUR.

RichK 

You are correct.  Darrow was a defender of the people who had no defense.  I was referring who will always attend a public meeting where "evolution" is the subject.  Being from Tennessee, and driving through Dayton occasionally, it is hard to think that national attention came to such a small town over a law that restricted teachers from teaching "evolution" as a possible source of creation.  The year was 1925, and the small town had 200 reporters from all over the nation present.  A national radio broadcast of the trial took place.  Cameramen from California came to film the trial.  It turned into a media circus.  I will repeat what I said earlier:  You will get a swift and angry response whenever you decry a core belief of a group of people.  In this case, either side, those who are "pro-evolution" and those who are "pro-creation" is more than willing to issue a plaintive cry for their belief in the matter.  The law of the land prevailed in this case.  The Butler law was not unconstitutional. John Scopes apparently disobeyed the law, and was appropriately fined $100.  The State Supreme Court upheld the verdict, but declined to fine Scopes.  The judge had made a procedural mistake.  At that time only a jury could assess a fine of over $50. 

FYI- The ACLU convinced Scopes to violate the law in order to create a test case to determine the constitutionality of the law.  

Islander,

Don't I know that this topic will usually raise the heat up just a tad.  But sometimes it's good to get warm & pump the heart a beat or two more.  That's one of the reasons I don't use a belief system, especially for the sake of arguement or discussion.

Yes, Scopes did indeed break the law.  The case itself was aimed at finding the law itself wrong, which in the end was the case, & rightfully so.  I didn't know @ the ACLU's behind the scene actions.  thanks.

RichK

 by author

Islander,

Was your message garbled?  The only thing I saw was, "by author."

RichK

I believe what probably happened was that islander started a blog response and didn't want to post it.  I have had that happen too.  What worked for me was, if you start a blog and you don't have time to finish it or for whatever reason don't want it to appear, what you do is go back up to the top of this page and click on Blogs: under What's new on MyClaySun? and your entry is not posted and disappears. 

There may be another way to delete your entry but I don't know of another.

I just tested this process after I had hit Preview comment and it worked. 

Okay.  I wrote a post about the ACLU, and then I sort of blew a gasket as I had a couple of other google windows open doing research.  Mind you, the original post wasn't all warm and friendly toward them, but fair.  After I saw the article "ACLU to defend NAMBLA", well I lost it.  I said, in the erased blog, that while I didn't agree with them in many cases, they perhaps serve a purpose.  ARGHH as Charlie Brown would say.  When I read that the moonbats at the ACLU were going to defend NAMBLA, well, the blog had to be erased.

I already went off on a sarcasm blog and got flamed, so I didn't want to get flamed again for writing a blog in favor of those people.  In fact I flamed myself after posting the blog , hence "deleted by author".   You could rename the blog, but if you left the text box empty, it wouldn't post. 

So, all you guys got was the deleted by author message. Thank goodness I could get rid of the original blog....

Here I am lower than a snakes belly, a moron, and hypocrite.  But with additional input I can always change my mind.