Teacher's Response - Fact about FIH t-shirt protest

Grizelda:

Thanks for setting the record straight and saying what every public school parent needs to hear!  You sound like a teacher parents should want for their child.

You're absolutely right about the seductive way parents allow young girls to dress today.  And, whoever thought that today's privileged young men would revel in emulating ghetto "gangsta".  I for one have had enough of being inudated in the malls with girls showing their bellies, their cracks and underwear for all to see - and boys walking like geishas because their crotches are down to the floor, while one hand is busy holding up the back of their pants. Though the style has been blamed on rap music, MTV, etc.,  the bottomline is that the blame lies with the parents who pay the exorbitant prices for and allow their children to dress that way. If they did not buy, outlets would not sell. The parents are "enablers".

And yes, those same parents will be the first to blame everybody and everything else if their children receive any injury or assault because of their behavior. 

It's time for today's parents to take control of their children, to insist they obey rules and regulations at home, at school and in other public places. But, I'm not going to hold my breath.  Today's parents, instead of being instructors in manners, morals and behavior of their children, have opted instead to be their "friend".  A friend is one who accepts any behavior and excuses all improprieties as just "bad decisions" or "mistakes".  But, could you expect anymore when an ex-president himself redefined the definition of "sex", and explained away his indiscretions as "mistakes", and it worked?

Grizelda, I agree with you about some of the thing that students want to wear to school.

I think the reason the blog got off on a strictly dress code tangent was that the original blog was a total rant from someone that was upset because her poor little sister was one of the students that got caught up in the protest. I probably should have taken what was said in that blog with a grain of salt given the tone of the blog.

I do not however, agree with your statements about protest. Protest can be a good thing. It is most certainly a good thing for today's students to learn. If it wasn't for protest, we might still be in Viet Nam and may not ever get out of Iraq.

If he did not like what was being said about his fences, then a dialogue might have been a better way to go. Sounds more like a knee jerk reaction rather than a well thought out plan of action. Sort of like, how dare you disagree with me? I'll teach you who is in charge, I'm going to bust you all for a dress code violation.

Just sounds like he may have been acting a bit childishly. To me this could have been turned into a real learning experience rather than a sour tasting lesson in what happens when leaders let ego over thake common sense. 

Finder

I probably would not have handled the protest the same way, but he is in charge. Just as a parent, an employer, or commanding officer has a right to dictate some things to his subordinates, Mr. Ward gets to decide what the decorum in his school will be. He thought it was disruptive to the learning process, and therefore, made a decision to make it less so. It WAS disruptive. My classes could talk of nothing else. At least half of the class was spent discussing the protest, and this was BEFORE students were instructed to change shirts. Afterward, it was even worse. The students might have been taken more seriously if they had taken their issue to their student government representatives or asked for a dialog with Mr. Ward before staging the t-shirt protest. Instead they chose to impact every student's right to a full day of academics. 

Why do you think the students don't want the gates? It inhibits their stealing things from other's lockers AND from skipping school. Every day, effort that could be focused on more worthwhile pursuits is spent policing the boundaries of the campus and addressing the issue of stolen calculators, clothing, cell phones, and iPods. 

As for "If it wasn't for protest, we might still be in Viet Nam and may not ever get out of Iraq." We left Viet Nam with our tail between our legs, and will probably be forced into the same retreat by like-minded people again. These are the same people who believe that there is little worth fighting for....until the enemy is at their own front door. Then, it will be too late.

Grizelda, You are correct about time and money could be better spent on education than installing fencing and gates.  Permanent class rooms would be nice.  Portables are an eye sore.   It is too bad that so much effort has to be spent on emergency management and crime prevention because students choose to skip or bring electronic gadgets to school and leave them unsecured.  I can not figure out how some of these toys enhance the educational process.  They have to be a distraction for the student and the teacher.  I guess you can’t come to school and fit in with out a cell phone or IPod.  Some students are not there to get an education, they are there to make fashion statement and socialize.  Education is not on their agenda.   

Grizelda, some of your statements just enforced some of what I was trying to point out.

Mr. Ward is not the parent per se, he is not their employer and he is not a Commanding Officer. No one gets to dictate to students in a public school. He can dictate to you (his employee) if you tolerate it (I wouldn't).

He is an administrator and should act like one. The bottom line is that he is only a school principal. Nothing more, nothing less. Granted, he has moved pretty high up the food chain but he is not the all mighty dictator that everyone must fear. These are not meant to be disparaging remarks against Mr. Ward. I don't even know him. They are impressions garnered from your remarks. 

If busting all the protesters for dress code violations made the disruption worse, it is pretty obvious to me that it was not the best solution. Even from your response it sounds like Mr. Ward may not be the type that takes criticism or input very well.

To state that the only reason they protested was because it reduces their opportunities to steal or skip school, paints them all with a pretty broad brush. I seriously doubt that everyone of them is a thief, or skips a lot of school. If this is the thought process that leaders use to make decisions then I can understand fully why they felt the need to go this route.

The fact is, protest can be a good thing. To say that everyone of the protesters were wrong and there was no fault on the other side is very naive. Was there error on the part of the students? Sure. Did some wear the T-shirt just to irritate the school leaders? Probably so. But if you take the bait, don't cry about the pain of the hook. That goes for both sides.

The fences and gates may accomplish stopping some thieves and school skippers but at what cost. Has anyone looked at the safety issues? How much time have these fences and gates added to an emergency evacuation? Does anyone have the answer to that? If not, then it needs to be looked at.

You don't need a sledge hammer to kill an ant. The least intrusive solution is usually the best.

Oh, by the way, protest also got the Berlin wall torn down! During my 26 years in the military, I found war to be repugnant, unethical and immoral. Yet we continue to make the same errors in how we fight them. Then they have the audacity to charge our soldiers with murder. How hypocritical can they get. But this should be the subject of a new thread if you care to go there.

Finder

 The Florida Times-Union

October 1, 2007

Let's face it. FIH has been a loose run school since the beginning. Let's not offend the well off parents of our students. Dress code, and every other normal behavior has been not cool. Now he wants to tighten down. It's about time, the only problem is that it is too late. Once a behavior pattern has been established by a school administration, it's a done deal. He should have tightened down from day one, but he didn't. Have you read the sign in front of FIHS that says "car towed - call 307-XXXX", your friendly neighborhood local wrecker. That's an attempt to enforce his own rules. It's better than nothing, but it is a little too late. Of course his students don't want to hear the word no, after years of silent yes's. Too much given too soon is Sam's problem. It's not going to go away. Maybe FIHS needs a new skipper at the helm. Actually CCC its been a golden eagle, not a golden child. Now its a power struggle between students and administration. Given today's mentality, I would bet on the students - eventually. Whatever happened to the diversity training imposed the last time Sam flexed his administrative power? For those of you who don't quite get it....I support Sam 100%.  Just a bit of sarcasm here.

It is never too late for Sam to turn the issues around at FIHS.  He is dealing with a Star Bucks generation of students raised by generation X. The word no does not exist in most of the parent’s vocabulary.  These kids are always in negotiation with their parents and most become worn down and give in during the stand off.  The negotiation doesn’t stop at home it comes to school and the work place.  Parents are taking the path of least resistance to parenting and so it makes it difficult for the child to follow the rules or respect authority.  Sam is going to be the captain of the ship as long as he has the support of the superintendent and there is not a problem there.  As always there are malcontents wherever you go.  FHIS has some malcontents and they are being dealt with. This will soon pass.  Go Sam Ward!

Islander - I support Sam Ward as well, though I don't have any personal knowledge of him, never met him, what I have read he is doing a good job under the difficult circumstances of opening and running the 'golden eagle' as you put it.  I also agree he probably should have cracked down from the beginning, but then again - he probably would not have lasted two years if he started out that way. 

He truly seems to be interested in the welfare of the children and that is the bottom line.  Watch the parking lot empty and you will see what he is dealing with (Acura, Benz, Beemers, etc...). 

He is not their friend, he is their principal. 

"To blatantly disregard any of the rules is a result of insubordination or ignorance," writes Grizelda, a teacher at Fleming Island High School.  Perhaps it fits under the broad definition of insubordination, but there is also another legitimate reason students blatantly disregard rules about the dress code - civil disobedience.

Sometimes it takes breaking a rule in order to generate a debate about the rule.  It is a valuable lesson that seems to have been omitted from the FIHS curriculum.

OneMann - I sure enjoy your BCC blogs and other comments but in my opinion you are way off on your comments on this topic:

OneMann: "Sometimes it takes breaking a rule in order to generate a debate about the rule.  It is a valuable lesson that seems to have been omitted from the FIHS curriculum."

 Come on - you seem civic minded.  Why in the world would you advocate to a group of teenagers to break a rule in order to generate debate?  That is like saying if you don't agree with a speed limit, speed down 220 to generate debate!!  Again, I enjoy your civic commentary but only hope you have no position influencing teenagers! 

The lesson FIHS is trying to impart to students is there are rules to live by (in the same way you implore the BCC to abide by theirs).  If there are rules the students don't like, they need to learn how to bring them up in a civil manner.  With your thinking, when they graduate (if they do) and they don't like their work start time on their first job, then should they just come in late?   If they don't like that 8 o'clock class in college, heck, just go by the prof's office at 10ish and ask for the notes?

I know you throw comments out there (like I do at times) but just had to take you to task on your quote above.  Considered yourself taken, for what it is worth.

Triple C:  "Why in the world would you advocate to a group of teenagers to break a rule in order to generate debate?"

Because Patrick Henry, John Hancock, Rosa Parks, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mohandas Ghandi and many, many others in history have shown civil disobedience to be a viable form of protest.

No property was damaged, nor people injured, when some students at Fleming Island High School wore T-shirts saying "Fleming Island Penetentiary."  I doubt the shirts were even disruptive until the school administration made a big deal out of them.  It was, despite your assertion otherwise, protest in "a civil manner."

There is a difference between breaking rules because you don't want to follow them and breaking a rule because you feel the rule is wrong.  Your examples about speeding on 220, sleeping through early class, or even the County Commission aren't germane to a discussion about civil disobedience.

There has only been one teen I've tried to influence, and you can bet your rights as an American that he was taught about civil disobedience has been a tool used often to effect change in society.  I hope it is a lesson he will someday teach his own teens.

Sorry CCC, but I have to agree with OneMann. Protest can be a good thing. Lets get beyond the small view of FIHS. Rules are a good thing and should be followed as long as they are good rules. But all rules set in place are not good and should be protested as strongly as possible.

Lets think Boston Tea Party, the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWII, Civil Rights demonstrations, Anti-Nazism marches, Union Strikes, etc. etc. etc. Teenagers need to understand the idea, ideals and principles of protesting. The thing is, they need to learn that there is a price to pay with the protest. I think they learned that and some were willing to pay the price. Does that make them bad people, I think not.

If everyone just blindly followed rules set down by someone in some sort of authority then we would still be under the King, keeping slaves, having separate fountains for blacks.... You surly get the gist of this by now.

What I see in some of the comments is a real problem with understanding that this is a school not some military outfit. It scares the heck out of me when I read words like 'insubordination' and 'dictate' applied to students and someone in charge of a school or teaching our sons and daughters.

Blind obedience is not a good thing. If 35 students felt that it was necessary to go this route, I doubt that this was the first time the fences were brought up. Get over the dress code violation. That was not what this was about.

Watch the parking lot empty and you will see what he is dealing with (Acura, Benz, Beemers, etc...).  What is your point? Is it a crime that the families drive those type of vehicles? Or are you trying to say that they are spoiled brats that need constant supervision because they don't drive some old beater that should be taken off the road? So Mom and Dad both work so they can afford to live better and give more to their children than they had.

It isn't the same world we grew up in, and I am certainly glad about that. When you really stop to think about it, the good old days weren't that good when compared to what we have today.

What would be really good in this whole thing would be for some of the students that were involved to step up make some comments, or start a new thread to express their ideas, views and the reasons for their actions. I for one, would love to hear from them. These students are our future whether we like it (or them) or not.

Finder

Big difference - high schoolers versus Adults fighting in some cases for their lives.

Ok, I'll give you that some of my examples may not have been germane, but the principle is germane.  You hit on the big difference that causes a problem, these are kids disagreeing with an authoritative decision, not adults caught in national movements of civil rights or international movements of independence.  THOSE comparisions are not germane.

Bottom line is that kids, yes kids - have to learn the civil way to disagree. 

Was wearing t-shirts civil? maybe - maybe not, but the principal is put into a position to make those decisions.  Was defying the principal and wearing the t-shirts when told not to civil?  No.

The kids are being taught (hopefully) to respect authority, and to defy it respectfully.  Some chose to defy disrespectfully and they were suspended.  If their parents are like you, then they are proud.  If I was one of their parents, they would have learned a lesson from the principal - and more importantly - from ME.  I would have sat their butt down with a paper and pen and told them to write a letter on whey they should be able to wear their shirts, had them look up the address for the papers and the super, and send them.  Then have them request time at the CCSB through proper channels. 

That is the difference - these are not people fighting for their lives, they are kids learning to respect authority and question it appropriately.  The problem is we let them think they are equal to people like Hancock and Henry, they haven't earned that status!

I seriously don't think they changed "give me orange shirts or give me death." 

I engaged in this discussion under the blog by Princess who was the older sister of a student at FIHS.  My comments generally support both Finder and Mikes "take" on all this. 

I note for the record that the young woman who brought this to the blogs has made no entries other then the intial one when it was supposed to be about the dress code.

The most important entry I made on the other thread is this;

The Aim of Education should be to teach HOW to think, not WHAT to think. 

Blind obedience in all matters isn't what I teach my kids.  Blind obedience has lead to  children being taken away by a Child Molestor because he's an adult, fearful of saying no.  Blind Obedience is what has given Priests the opportunity to molest children because they are taught that Priests can do no wrong.  Blind obedience, or obedience by intimidation as support many an evil man to power and destruction.

Blind obedience in specific instances can save a life, using it as guideline for life is dangerous.  

CCC, I'm lost here. Could you give me your definition of 'civil' and 'kids'?

I think you are still wrapped around the axel with dress code violation. This was just the medium used to make a statement. I totally disagree with your side of the fence.

But that's OK. We'll just have to disagree on this one. You have to right to sit back and watch so you can be considered civil. I'll take the other road. If it is unjust, unfair or just plain stupid, I'll be one of the non-civil protesters. Hopefully, I'll have some 'kids' with me to carry on the fight when us 'old folks' can't.

Some times you just have to grab your lance, jump on your trusty steed and charge the windmill. Every once in a while you manage to break off a blade or knock down the entire windmill. 

Finder

I guess, CCC, we'll just have to disagree, but I believe the protest at FIHS was a very civil means of protest.

I'll also have to disagree about Henry, Parks et al not being germane to the protest at Fleming Island High.  I think their examples are exactly on point.  The students may not be adults, and may not be fighting for their lives, but they did believe in their issue strongly enough to risk the inevitable punishment - just like King, Ghandi and others did.

Marsha, as usual, summed things up well.  We can graduate a class full of students taught blind obedience, or we can graduate a class of students who have learned how to think for themselves - and protest the inequities they see.

Perhaps we're actually discussing different issues.  I am looking at the larger picture, and I think at least Mike is too.  So far as what the kids did, they had something they thought should be open for discussion and that is the first point of contention.  What they did was peaceful, but disruptive.  The Principle furthered the disruption in order to gain control.  The large majority folded and turned their shirts inside out, no shame in that.  A couple did not, took a stand on their "perceived rights and principles" and got suspended for the remainder of the day, I would have had them writing about their rights for the rest of the day, the suspension was more of a pain to the parent then the student.

Now that the story has become more clear I take no issue with what the Principal did, don't agree but take no issue, it was his call.   Since I do disagree I would not punish my child, to disagree yet turn around and punish them for something just because they got in trouble at school, that is a form of hypocrisy.  I would however respect the Principal enough not to pick a fight over it either. 

My disagreement is with the larger picture and that kids should "obey all rules put before them with no question"   Everyone else can do what they want but me......I am preparing my kids for the real world they're going to be expected to live in.  We've got Teachers having sex with kids, Teachers doing drugs in school. The days of "Teacher is always right" is over. I even instruct my kids to never listen to a "cop" who cannot show any credentials regardless of what they're wearing or driving. 

This whole thing, to me, goes back to who's running things.  Yes, civil disobedience is an American right.  But so is carrying a gun.  Are we ready to extend that right to kids at school too?  A dramatic exaggeration - yes, but the point is, school is not the same as outside of school.  The principal should have the right to maintain some level of discipline and decorum in his school.  His arse will definitely be on the line if something bad happens to one of the the precious little miscreants in the course of their civil disobedience.  Then, it will be "He should have maintained better control" of his school.

My wife and I both, and all 3 of my kids, went to public school.  But I'll be damned if I send my grandkids to a public school system that is too weak to enforce a respectable dress code, or expect its students to follow simple rules.  Many, not all, kids look as if they are going to the beach, or a night club, when they go to school.  Flip-flops, tight as skin short shorts, etc.  Don't even tell me it's not allowed - I see them every morning waiting to get on the bus.

I want my grandkids to be held to a higher standard, and to understand that there are authority figures in place for a reason.  If you want to protest - fine.  But to deny an entire school of a day of education because some spoiled little brats don't get their way and decide they are going to disrupt the entire system, makes a farce of the system.  The old adage is true - "You reap what you sow."  Let your children run your house, and you will pay the price by having disrespectful, unappreciative children who think they know everything.

Fortunately, when they have to get out an earn a paycheck, they will quickly learn that Mommy and Daddy aren't going to always be there and save their little butts.

I hate rude, arrogant, obnoxious kids - can you tell? 

Catch up Mr Man, the protest was not over the dress code. 

There is a wide gap between being disrespectful and having a mind of your own.

My kids have been in schools all over the Eastern Seaboard so I've seen enough to know where there is a "higher standard" and depends upon the individual school.

Just because a parent allows a child to be heard does not mean they run the house, or are rude, arrogant and obnoxious. 

Flip flops??? You're actually complaining about a shoe that has been around for decades especially in the south???? 

Islander

In answer to your question about whatever happened to the mandated diversity training the last time Sam flexed his muscles, here are the facts and an update for newcomers.

Kelli Davis was a senior honor student in the first graduating class at FIHS about 3 years ago. The school sent out memos to seniors saying they should have their senior portraits made in either a tux or drape. The school did not make the dress gender specific. Kelli, who felt the drape was too revealing, asked the photographer if she could wear a tux, and he said, "Sure". When Ward heard about the photo, he took her picture out of the yearbook without notifying her or giving her a chance to have retakes. Someone told Kelli about Ward's decision. Also, Superintendent Owens and Ward would not return calls from Kelli's mom to work out an agreement so that she could have her picture in the yearbook, until after the yearbook had already gone to press. She and her mom obtained an attorney and an intention to sue Ward, Owens, and the School Board was made.

The School Board Attorney, Bruce Bickner, on behalf of the defendents, asked to mediate a settlement instead of gong to court. An agreement was reached that stipulated that 1) if students had problems with the dress code for senior portraits, they could petition the principal for alternate dress and 2) ALL TEACHERS HAD TO BE TAUGHT DIVERSITY TRAINING. After Owens announced she had an alternate lifestyle on the local news and said this was the reason she wore the tux, Davis was publicly ostracized and criticized by one teacher and some students at FIHS, who made her life miserable.

Fast forward 3 years later. When Folio Weekly, who covered the story checked FIHS last May to see if the terms of the agreement had been followed. They found Owens had failed to mandate the changes, even though he had agreed to them to stop the suit. Attorney Bruce Bickner actually had already written a diversity program and volunteered to teach it, but Owens would not allow it. Davis's lawyer wrote a letter of intent to sue. Bickner asked for an extension to put the mandated agreement into practice. Davis's attorney gave them several months to do so. The results are that Owens will put the agreement into practice.

Islander, teachers are now supposed to be scheduled for the Diversity Training. Sounds like Ward and Owens may want to sit in.

Hmmm..... Very interesting Pioneer. Only 3 years! This is one the reasons I like Folio Weekly. They cover things that TU wouldn't touch with a page 12 story. 

Finder

Do we really need these?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know what the protest was about. I was responding to other comments re dress codes, and school attitudes in general. If I were King of the World - when kids went to school they would look like it, and not like they were going to the beach. Bikinis have been around a long time too. How about those in class? Dress for success. If you want to grow up to be a professional beach bum, swimming trunks, flip flops, and torn tee shirts are what I would recommend as the uniform of the day. Not to say a kid dressed like Spicoli can't grow up to be President, or an anonymous blogger, but it's not appropriate attire - to me.

I know it seems a little extreme, but it's my opinion, and I get to state it any way I want.

Too far off topic - sorry, but my comments were directed to the general idea of the inmates running the asylum. I'll crawl back in my cave, and come out when I have more acceptable opinion. Good Night.

The teachers comments hit the nail on the head.  Parents and Students alike read and sign the code of conduct, which includes a dress code.  Parents need to be more involved in their children's education and ENFORCE the code of conduct and dress code that they signed up for.  You don't like the dress code, find a private school that would tolerate such open and blatant act of insubordination. 

You were obviously offended by my entry and I apologize because it was not my intent.  There has been some confusion on the issue and between the two threads, I thought you were as well.

You're entitled to your "extreme opinions", as is everyone and I've never done or said anything to suggest otherwise.  Just because we disagree does not make either of us wrong.

No, I don't need to use all the ??????, I was just honestly caught off guard and surprised. The ????? is my way of putting emphasis on the question.  I didn't realize something so simple among adults could cause such a ruckas.

You've always been very even tempered here, and I am more then a little surprised at your response.  But once again, I'm sorry what I said made you angry, regardless of the fact that it wasn't the intent.   

School uniforms!!  No muss, no fuss, no kids determined to be "uncool" because they don't meet the fashion criteria.  No flip flops, no bikinis, no ball gowns.  Just uniforms.  Of course, it wouldn't solve all the other issues.  But maybe if kids had to wear uniforms they wouldn't want to be seen in public so we wouldn't need gates to lock them in!

I have to say also that this thread reminds me of eons ago, when I was a HS senior.  Some friends and I organized a quiet, yet very successful "strike" against the cafeteria (the food was awful and getting worse by the week it seemed).  We chose a date and talked to individuals - no signs, no publicity - just talked to people and asked them to spread the word that everyone bring their lunch from home on that date and boycott the cafeteria.  Everyone brought lunch from home except for one.  Yes, it was a small high school, population only a few hundred, but we were successful - imagine, only one student in that time period purchased his lunch that day!!  The principal summoned everyone to the auditorium and lectured us, calling the student population "sheep" who blindly followed a few people and told us how wrong we were.  He didn't really know who was responsible but I'm sure he had his suspicions.  And yes, the food improved.  But when I think of that, what I remember most is that our boycott made one of the cafeterial ladies cry.  Because it was a small school in a rural area, everyone knew everyone else.  She was the mother of one our classmates and she told us the next day that her mother cried after she got home, because she felt so bad - she took it personally.  That pretty much put a damper on our success because she was a really nice lady.  Sorry - that story was longer than planned.

I think peaceful protests that don't do physical/mental harm to anyone or damage to property are perfectly reasonable and school administrators should have at least a clue as to how to manage these incidents without setting off fire storms. 

Ad you're right - those men SHOULD be attending diversity classes.  I just found out the other day that anyone can run for Superintendent.  There are no qualifications - no degrees, no managerial background, no requirements or expectations.  If you can get the vote, you too can become District Superintendent.  Onemann - would you confirm please?  Or anyone else who has knowledge of this.  Thanks.

The subject of the protest is indicative of the moral compass of these kids. Racism? Sexual harassment? A favorite teacher/coach fired? No, they want an easier way out, rather like toddlers confined for their own safety. They are furious that those responsible for protecting them are finding better ways to do it. They don't like being told "NO." It doesn't happen very often in their lives. 

Civil disobedience can be a noble act. There was nothing noble about this protest. It was a small number of pampered, irreverent children whining because they can't get out of the "playpen" as easily as they have in the past.   

You're almost correct.  "There are no qualifications - no degrees, no managerial background, no requirements or expectations."

There are some requirements, but those pertain to the electoral process and apply to anyone running.  That is the same for all elected offices in the county.

The only expectations are the campaign promises made by a candidate.  And again, that is the same for all elected positions.

Grizelda, Might I suggest you take a vacation or perhaps seek employment opportunities in a different field? Your venomous attitude and comments about the students certainly aren't what I'd like to see in a teacher.

I really think you need to get over the dictatorial and commanding officer attitude. I'm pretty sure that all the students involved weren't pampered and irreverent. Are you jealous of the fact that today's children have more than we did, and don't blindly follow orders like good little boys and girls. Get over it! You need to learn how to deal with them with more than a 'because I said' mentality.

If this is indicative of the attitude of the faculty, I'm surprised there aren't more protests. Including from the parents.

Finder

Guess I have some catching up to do

Finder, you took task with my comment about the cars in the parking lots.  I am thrilled that today's high schoolers can drive BMWs and Mercedes.  Great!  My point (yes it was generalized) was those same kids are not used to being told no.  They pretty much get anything they want.  Does that make them bad?  No.  Do I want them to suffer in hunger instead?  Of course not.  My point is we have bred a generation of kids who pretty much get what they want, and we have to deal with it and not be afraid to tell them no.  In fact, we have an obligation to tell them no for their own good.

I don't have much else to add - the principal is doing his job.  If he is so bad, form a movement (civil I would hope) to get him removed.

Our only disagreement on this thread is how kids should show their disagreement.  It goes back to the toddler in the shopping cart screaming for something and mommy shoving candy at them to quiet them.  Or teaching them restraint.  Some parents respond to the screaming with candy, others teach them restraint and they get candy at the end of the shopping trip if they have been 'civil.'  Take your pick.

Our job as parents, adults, and leaders is to provide fences for our young, both literally and figuratively, and make decisions about the times we can safely let them run free.  If we don't, we have failed them miserably in preparation for the real world.

I told all of you before that there is a lot to learn on these blogs.  And judging by the responses to this topic, I was right.  I'm not going to comment on the principal or the school because I don't have children so I don't have any first hand knowledge.  I'm not even going to comment on dress codes because that arguement has been going on for longer than I care to admit, & not much has been done @ it.

What I will do is comment on two things.  It seems, & in many cases, rightly so, that the various sides are argueing form versus function in the way the children protested.  I will not condemn them for doing what they did.  Could they have protested in another way that did not earn the ire of so many?  Absolutely.  But we have to remember that they are still in the learning process.  The only people they have to show them that there are good ways & bad ways to protest are adults.

One other thing.  Just the fact that these kids decided to protest & not blindly follow a rule or regulation shows that they are not apathetic, something that has been discussed on these blogs on numerous occasions.  I personally hope that as they grow, they will not become apathetic voters.  They should be encouraged to doubt, question, maybe do some research before arriving at a course of action.  They just need to shown that right way to that course.  JATFUR.

Doubt is the first step towards knowledge.  Acquiring knowledge is the next step to a higher intellect.

RichK

Finder, I am sure that in your naval career and in your job as a civilian contractor, you were faced with rules and regulations that you questioned or didn't agree with. Did you just disobey them, or did you take your issues to the powers that be, up through the chain of command,  and give them an opportunity to explain their reasoning? These students did neither.

 Most of my students (and the students at FIH) are great kids. They come in most days eager to learn. Unfortunately there are kids in every school who don't have that same commitment, AND choose to jeopardize other kids' education. I recently told a student that he was hindering the education of the other students in the class. He said, " I don't give a s*$!."

If this protest had been about something worthwhile, it would have had more support. It's about fences. Look around the county. Most schools have fences around them. They are not only to keep the kids in, but to keep criminals and vandals out. Every time a classroom is broken into, it costs us, the taxpayers, money to repair and replace the damaged or stolen items. 

I am not against civil disobedience. It has been the driving force behind many movements that have changed the world.

And, Finder, it isn't I who is venomous. I have not been attacking you or anyone personally. YOU HAVE. If I were, I might have suggested that you spent too many years in the Navy, taking orders from superiors with whom you disagreed, but to whom you were afraid to speak your mind. OR maybe, you realized that sometimes you don't get to make the rules, you just follow them. If you don't, and you are at sea, I believe that could be called mutiny.

Get a grip. The only venom is from you, supporting a very small of kids who made a poor choice to protest something as silly as fences.

Where does all that hostility come from? It's very typical of the left, who always say that the right is mean-spirited, all the while slinging mud. This discussion did not have to become personal...you chose to make it that way.

Grizelda,

FIHS has long enjoyed an unfenced campus. There are few such campuses in the county. The one campus I enjoy driving by is McRae Elementary on CR-315C south of the SR-16/SR-21 interchange. It is a pastural setting and reminds me of the way schools "use to be." Open. Available. Community schools.

Having said that, safety is the number one concern of the School Board and so is the protection of School Board property. And I agree and acknowledge that change is difficult for ALL of us. If we accept that this change mobilized a student body to protest, then we honor those 35 students who rose with one voice to say they do not like what they see happening at their school.

I don't care about the "privilege" argument. I don't care about civilized protest. I think that's a cop out.

I care about students. They communicated a concern they felt was within their right to tell their authoritive body. They chose a peaceful path in donning t-shirts to communicate their protest.

Their ideology could have been elevated by administration as an example of the constitutional rights of free speech. By acknowledging that, the administration could have used their protest as a demonstration of the American electoral process. Every senior (12th grade) student is required to take American National Government. It's a civics lesson in the making.

Isn't this a perfect example of what the American political process is all about? The Administration had the choice of using this situation in conjunction to what it is trying to teach these students...in fact a requirement for graduation.

The Administration maintained control. But it didn't teach.

In my humble opinion, the Adminstration failed the student population. We're here to teach.

Not to rule.

Grizelda, if I seemed venomous toward you personally it was not my intention. It is just that broad brush stroke statements like they are ALL 'pampered and irreverent' from anyone, get under my skin.

The one who doesn't give a ****? I agree, that one may need some work! But you know, even a person like me that was less than a stellar student in high school ended up with a BS, an MA and an MS. Thankfully there were a few teachers that saw past the attitude and provided some good guidance and a good education. I didn't think so at the time, and I'm pretty sure they would have liked to have kicked me in the seat of the pants.

One of my points in this dialogue was that school is not, and should not, be run like it is the military. To compare them as such I feel is an apples and oranges issue.

As to my career in the Navy and not saying anything..... never had that problem. :) Some stupid rules I was able to change immediately. Some I had to wait till the person who made them left. But, as you said, some I just couldn't change. That does not mean I gave up the fight. It just meant that I had to wait to pick the right time and place. But one thing that everyone always understood was that my lance and steed were always at the ready to charge the windmill if the occasion arose.

If we can agree on anything, then perhaps we are better off to just agree that we disagree and leave it at that. 

Finder

"Civil disobedience can be a noble act. There was nothing noble about this protest. It was a small number of pampered, irreverent children whining because they can't get out of the "playpen" as easily as they have in the past."

Let's review exactly what I said. I did not say "all." In fact I said almost the opposite. (Note: Typical leftist twist on someone's words.)

 As for being jealous of my kids' lifestyles, I am in that enviable position of not having to work. I  am very lucky to do what I do for a living.  I look forward to going to work almost every day. My "less than stellar"  students  know that they will  always get a fair shake with me.

I would suggest that before you jump to conclusions about my experience and motives, you take those degrees down to Green Cove and offer to be a long-term sub.Or even talk to a few teachers. What you will find is that most of our kids are great, but as in all institutions, we have our share of those who want to make it difficult for everyone else.

I honor your willingness to have your "lance and steed" at the ready. Thank you for your service and concern.  

Key2Life,

Enjoyed your entry as I have most of them even if I don't agree with every line in every blog.  With all the intense emotions that run in these blogs I don't think it can be said too much that just because you are disagreed with does not mean that either  is wrong.  That old saying about death and taxes being the only facts of life in a secular world is still valid today.  

There may be comments coming about Students and their "Rights" it seems within the walls of the School they have no rights, and I have been told that by more then one Educator over the years. 

I don't understand the theory behind it other then to dominate and maintain control which does and does not make sense.  I've always thought if you were born an American Citizen those inalienable rights came at the moment of your birth, not at 18yrs of age. I know that in Military Service you voluntarily give up some of those rights, those in prision give up some of their rights and Students just don't have any.

I'm a little concerned that recent comments are now taking this into the political arena, I guess I will take care in the future to not express anything that would identify my political affiliation in dealing with the school as that can be used against me. I can honestly say in having children within the public school system in several states for 27yrs that I never took a Teachers opinion or a Principals opinion and applied partisan labels, it never even occured to me.  

I can't force the School to recognize the rights of my child as an American Citizen, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.  

They have no right to protest anything and that is what this all boils down to.  Their individual verbalizing is tolerated to a degree, but they have no rights.  Student Councils give them some measure of a collective voice but its more for pretense then substance. 

I do think it is a mistake to Judge the kids though.  Todays Honor Roll Student may be tomorrows serial killer and the rabble rousing "less then stellar" student may end up leading the free world or find a cure for cancer. 

My first born did everything wrong as a teenager in spite of my efforts.  I am one of those parents that some of you would point fingers at because of what the child was doing.  I don't know which was worse, watching her do everything opposite of what she was taught and realizing no amount of punishment was going to change it or THOSE OF YOU OUT THERE WHO SAT BACK AND RENDERED JUDGEMENT ON MY PARENTING SKILLS.  Now, she's a very conservative Mother who home schools her son, his curriculum so intense that she was actually advised to tone it down. She cares for two elderly neighbors, is a Den Leader for Tiger Scouts, is always busy with fundraising for various groups, and her son collects and works for change that he donates each year so that other kids who have nothing get a present at Christmas.  Last year after Christmas the boy actually gave some of his own gifts away, not because he is spoiled and didn't want them, but because he couldn't enjoy what he had without thinking about the kids who had nothing.

So.....in the end, the values she was taught and the sense of right and wrong that was drilled into her were all there and are now being transferred to her own kids.  Today people admire who she is and pay me compliments as a Parent, ten years ago I was blamed for who she was and judged as a Parent.   

It's ok to judge the behavior but it's wise to not judge the child, or the Parent if you're aren't personally involved in their lives. Some humans are troubled from birth and it never changes but there are millions who go from good to bad, or from bad to good.  If your vocation is dealing with kids, that is a valuable thing to remember.  To those out there who truly care about what they're doing in teaching our children my hat is off to you, I don't see how you do it whether they're ankle biters or teenagers. In large groups they are an exhausting and challenging bunch.