Bettin' on the Bettors

OneMann-I understand your apparent disappointment over the poker room vote tonight. I have read your blogs for a while now and know that you are learned and savvy about government.  However, you know better than to think that every decision facing a board is decided by a head count of those who show up for and against a particular issue.  There is a long and deliberative process, and consideration of research and materials, which precede a vote.  

In the interest of accuracy, Mr. Cummings cast the 2nd vote in favor (not the deciding vote).  

In the interest of full disclosure, it is important for readers to understand that rumor has it you plan to run against Mr. Cummings for District 3 seat.  I guess the games have begun . . . wait  . . . you disagreed based on principle . . . oh, now I'm confused.

Stan, I am not a candidate now and may never be a candidate.  I have told folks here before that I am considering running for the District 3 seat, but the decision is well into the future.  I have other things to concentrate on now.

I was told by someone in attendance that Cummings cast the deciding vote, so I guess we'll have to check the record when it's available. 

My point, though possibly self-serving in the future, remains the same - that a candidate to join the County Commission has demonstrated an ability to stare into the face of a large number of his constituents and ignore their wishes.  In view of the recent history of the County Commission, I don't think (whether I run against Councilman Cummings or not) that the Board needs another member like that.

Of course, officials don't poll the crowd before their vote.  And, although some actions of the County Commission make me think otherwise sometimes, elected representatives should do research beforehand.  But, Stan, you and I are both politically savvy enough to know that "research" gathered on a specific issue of politics is often the result of efforts by lobbyists and public relations firms.

When I decide if I'm going to run for office, I'll make the announcement.  If you were familiar with my writing before MCS kindly opened this forum, you'd already know that I have complained about politicians ignoring their constituents many times before.  This blog topic ain't nothing new for me.

The vote did disappoint me, but only because of the way it occurred.  It took a decision out of the hands of all Clay Countians, then was decided by a Town Council that didn't listen to its relatively small number of citizens.  What's to like about a process that gets bought and sold like that?

I hate that it happened, but accept the fact that 1.) I don't live in OP, 2.) it was decided by a council - an elected group of representatives put in place to make decisions for people.  To me the only fair way to "poll" all OP voters is to have had a referendum.  But, if it were a typical turnout, there would be less than 1/3 of the people making the decision anyway (and I'm being generous with the 1/3).  All 3 of the 3-2 cast the deciding vote - all should be held accountable by voters, not just one.

I apologize for going slightly off blog-topic (poker room), but comparing the vote for poker rooms and universal garbage collection is interesting.  It has caused me to reconsider the poker issue.  When the BCC voted to enact universal garbage collection, and the fees that go with it, it was truly a very vocal minority that was opposed to the issue.  About 65% of the people in Clay County were already getting voluntary garbage pick-up so at best, 35% were opposed.  Those that filled the BCC room and complained about the government running roughshod over them were arguing for a bad position - an inefficient method of managing the waste of the citizens, but they were well within their rights.  But the fact that a couple hundred angry citizens show up to complain does not mean the representatives for nearly 200,000 people should bend to their will.

Similarly, the OP Town Council has to represent the entire City, not just a few dozen angry people.  I personally do not like the vote, but am not going to villify the 3 who voted for it.  I will not digress into why I think it was a bad idea, but will say that I know Travis and have seen him in action for a few years.  He strikes me as very open minded, very contemplative, smart, fair and in general, a really nice guy. BUT, I still don't like how he voted.  That doesn't change any of the nice things I said about him, just that we disagree on that issue.

Re OneMann running for Dist. 3 - it's the first I've heard of it, and think it is good that someone, anyone, would be willing to subject themselves to having every decision second guessed, and attributed every manner of motivation.  Should you decide to actually "go for it", I wish you the best of luck.  As a Dist. 4 guy, I won't get to vote, but I will watch to see how things are going for one of our own.

Deal me OUT!

OneMann you are on point here because in the Social Impacts study released by the State of Florida says the people outside of the Town of Orange Park will be the ones who will increases revenues. It is evident the Town of Orange Park voices did not matter in the scheme of things.

According to University of Nevada professor of Public Administration William Thompson, casinos generate significant new tax revenues "only if they can export their product. The local economy doesn’t benefit if only local people are gambling." 

The people of Orange Park will have the opportunity in District 3 to voice their thoughts concerning their representative on the BCC in the upcoming elections and if you feel they will represent your concerns. Those outside the district will have no vote.

In lower Florida when they voted to expand to slot machines Governor Bush made these statements in the Sun-Sentinel, "This will define our community, whether you like it or not. [Slot machines] limits our aspirations and defines us in a way that we should not be happy with,'' said Bush, who is from Miami and says he will move back when his term expires in less than two years. Bush called slot machines "a false hope if you believe it will help schools. It's a false hope if you believe it will help economic development."

The Town of Orange Park will be defined by the Poker Rooms that sit at the doorway of Clay County. The BCC District 3 position will be defined by the voters of Orange Park in the upcoming elections.
 

In the above post were comments made by Governor Bush in the quest for lower Florida to expand facilities.

These are the comments of Governor Bush in 2005.

In lower Florida when they voted to expand to slot machines Governor Bush made these statements in the Sun-Sentinel, "This will define our community, whether you like it or not. [Slot machines] limits our aspirations and defines us in a way that we should not be happy with,'' said Bush, who is from Miami and says he will move back when his term expires in less than two years. Bush called slot machines "a false hope if you believe it will help schools. It's a false hope if you believe it will help economic development."

Fast forward to 2007.

These are the results of the expanded gambling facilities in lower Florida.

Slots fail to hit jackpot for state schools-BY GARY FINEOUT Florida schools stand to lose millions of dollars in funding because slot machines in Broward County aren't bringing in as much money as the state expected as reported in Miami Herald recently. Full article in blog "Ante Up at the OPKC" on my MCS.  

I would be curious as to what extensive research and polling these council members did prior to the vote that produced the yes vote of the 3 council members. This certainly leans in the favor of lobbyist and public relations firms as you stated OneMann.

I don't think anyone who follows politics and the money it seeks are surprised by the vote to allow poker rooms at the dog track. I wasn't because I know human nature. I tend to agree with Nietzche.

As to who cast a "deciding" vote, it's irrelevant. Like Bax says, all three should be held accountable. Bax is also right (IMO) on all his observations regarding this issue. Yes, it's a vocal minority, but it's also the minority that is a majority in as much as most of the true majority are apathetic and the issue is unimportant to them either way. But politicians only serve those who give them money in one form or another. Voters don't count. Remember this on election day.

Comparing the actions of the OP council in gambling to the County Commission with their decision to thrust another tax on us via the Garbage Fiasco, is legitimate in that politicians in general are essentially very corrupt in their alleged souls. (Strictly speaking, I don't believe politicians have souls.) All those who taxed us with the garbage tax will have to answer for it, albeit not the way they should. (Here I am thinking tasers again.) I am looking forward to a clean sweep of all those on the board right now. I am also looking for a candidate who will pledge to repeal this tax.

"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure."
Clarence Darrow

On the issue of poker rooms.  Regardless of all the arguments, before & after the vote, the true test will be the results after a year or so.  Let's wait until we might see a trend that would support or or not support the various charges.  If anyone knows a better way, I for one would like to hear it.

Regardless of the many good ideas for & against, they were just that, ideas, opinions.  After a certain amount of time, I guess a year would be fair, the community will have some facts to support the arguements.  None of this is written in stone next to a burning bush.  If it was written into law, it can be written out as a law.  That simple.  JATFUR.

Doubt is the first step towards knowlege.  Acquiring knowlege is the next step to a higher intellect.

RichK

I was upset to see the results of this vote. I have been on many websites checking this out too. They offer blogs for people to express their feelings about places they visit. You are not allowed to post winning or your lack of winnings on these websites. You can rate your experiences good or bad concerning these places.

Just like the Moms that feel it is their duty to protect their children in another blog. I think it is my duty to blog on these sites to let potential gamblers know we are very close (just across the line) to the murder capitol of Florida. That the crime has come across the line and for the protection of vulnerable tourist that might come to the area need to know this information prior to a choice to come here and could potentially be a victim in this area. I believe enough data exist now to warn them before they arrive.

I know they will not get this information in some tourist brochure because I wasn't told about some of the problems (roads and more) that exist in Clay County prior to my choice to buy a home and relocate to this area.

RichK,

I think you're absolutely right. The old adage, "Time will tell" usually does. The thing that strikes me funny about OneMann's observation is that is 180 degree different from my observations.

If Mr. Cummings had been in this vote to earn votes for his next election, he'd have voted "No" under the "political" pressure. If he votes his conscience and votes "Yes" knowing what people like OneMann are going to say, I'm impressed. It tells me he can make an independent decision regardless whether its popular or not IF it's the right thing to do.

I guess its the difference in perception that makes things so interesting. Uncle Rich is right, ask again in a year.

Key..maybe the poker room vote might have been  for upcoming election CONTRIBUTIONS,  not upcoming election VOTES I guess we will se when the financial reports are posted at the end of this month.  Golly, this sure sounds pessimistic, or is it realistic?

cluelessinclay,

Good point. I guess we'll see what happens then, too. I know Mr. Cummings and what I know about him is that there's a great deal of integrity there. He tries to do the right thing. Granted, that can be left open to individual interpretation but I think you'll see in the upcoming weeks and months the same consistency you're seeing today.

Contributions don't necessarily turn into votes. Ask Lad Daniels.

I was at the meeting, Mr. Cummings did not cast the final vote. Why are you picking on him? Three people voted yes.

Also, the most striking to me of the comments by the five council members was from Mr. Morgan who said that of all the town residents he spoke to, most said they did not care one way or the other. There was a small group of very vocal people against the issue. There was a small group of very vocal people in favor of the issue. But it seems as if most residents really didn't care one way or the other.

I think the most vocal opponents are here on the blog. I wonder if any of them bothered to show for the meeting and express their opinion out in the open instead of just here...

It was interesting to see the pictures in the local media of supporters and non supporters.  Switzerland, I think you hit the nail on the head.  The majority of pics were of people outside of the town limits of Orange Park. 

You also nailed the voting issue, there is no final vote in a public meeting.  It may seem that way as the role is called or how people cast their vote, but it is what it is 3-2

I find it interesting that people continue to refer to statistics about casinos.  THE POKER ROOM IS NOT A CASINO!!!!  I am sick and tired of hearing all of the statistics about casinos in Nevada.  Give me some statistics from Poker Rooms in Florida.  To everyone spouting off statistics I say what are you afraid of?  Are you afraid of finding out the same thing the Chief of the Orange Park police found out?  The councilmen asked him to call as many of the SIMILAR facilities in Florida.  He read his finding at the meeting on Tuesday.  Not a single police department in those places has any problems at the poker room in that city. 

1.  Renninger - voted yes.......he said that even if some of the jobs were part time he was convinced that a job in the poker room was a great way for our young people to finance college.  He cited difficulties in helping students find a way to pay for college.

2.  Morgan - voted yes........He stated that he personally spent his Labor Day weekend calling as many citizens of Orange Park.  He said that he had some people for it and some against it but the majority of citizens in Orange Park said that they didn't care either way.  He also lashed out at the organization that sent out cards that had his home phone number on it.  Because of those cards he said that he only received a few phone calls and some of those calls were urging him to vote for a poker room.

3.  Cummings - voted yes - He gave his reason:  No other business in Orange Park has to ask for permission to expand internally their business.  Mr. Cummings is being harrassed the most for what sounds like a sound business decision. 

4.  Standifer - voted no - a few months ago he voted yes for the same reason Mr. Cummings did.  He changed his mind.  Okay.

5.  Jones - voted no- He spoke on  religious issues.  He purposely refered to the poker room as a "Casino" and spouted off statistics from Nevada.  Seems to me that he is the only one that didn't do his homework.  I believe as a member of the council of the people you must be at least willing to listen to both sides.  Mr. Jones had his mind made up as soon as he heard the word poker room.

As far as contributions are concerned the law says that a person or organization can only contribute a maximum of $500.00 to a candidate. 

I read a letter in the Clay Today today.  A River Road resident (that spoke at the workshop meeting) actually wrote a letter citing alcoholism (drinking and driving) and prostitution.  Does he not understand what a "glass house is"?  Shame on you!!!!!!!!  But I guess he is an expert on the issue.

Another person outside the meeting on Tuesday actually stated that he was the one that brought the complaint up about permits at OPKC.  He then got up to speak at the meeting saying that he was a regular patron of the Orange Park Kennel Club.  But, he didn't want a poker room.  I stopped listening at this point.  And the permit issue he was referring to was work that was completed at OPKC in October 2006.  Ten months after completion and it came up the day OPKC was going in front of the Town Council.  Please!!!!!

OPKC I value you as a corporate member of our community.  I thank you for all the charity contributions that you have given to our community. 

 Travis Cummings has my support!!!  Thank you for making a sound business decision based on facts not allegations that have no facts to back them up.

I will spend all the free time that I can blogging on websites geared to the poker enthusiast to inform poor unsuspecting individuals of the murder capitol of Jacksonville Florida which is at the edge of the OPKC parking lot.  To advise them this crime has come across that line and would encourage them to please check the crime stats on murder before coming to Orange Park to avoid becoming a victim of this or any other crimes. I will express this is a high crime area.

In reference to the above comment from lamann93

"Cummings - voted yes - He gave his reason:  No other business in Orange Park has to ask for permission to expand internally their business.  Mr. Cummings is being harrassed the most for what sounds like a sound business decision".   

If Mr. Cummings was so business oriented then he should understand that if the OPKC makes a choice to be in that type business which is heavily regulated by the State such as gambling. It is required to make those request just like many other businesses that require licenses.

The reason the State requires this to be handled at a local level is to let the representatives reflect the will of the people and the community. We know that didn't happen. This does open the question for debate concerning Mr. Cummings business making decisions off that statement, and if he is qualified to make decisions as a Commissioner for an entire district. The decision is based on the type license (Class I, Class II, Class III) you have that regulates the business not just to expand the OPKC internally. OPKC has already expanded internally without some proper permitting as reported.

Articles to read in the Florida Section of Jacksonville.com:

Supreme Court strikes law limiting horse race simulcasting. Associated Press

McCollum: State not required to talk blackjack with Indians. Associated Press

The arrogance of Morgan " A year from now you will forget about it" and the contempt for citizens shown by Renninger claiming he and the legislature know better than we do was out done only by the hypocritical proclamations of Travis Cummings.

The election for county commisioner will be the first referendum to decide if these "three little pigs go home"

If you beleive the statement by  lamann93 "As far as contributions are concerned the law says that a person or organization can only contribute a maximum of $500.00 to a candidate" I have a bridge to sell and copies of the campiagn reports of  Renninger and Morgan to prove otherwise, As to Cummings only took $500.00 the largest contribution of campaign. but check the percentage, no Cummings is savy enough to know being associated with powerful people is important too.

Amen! As a participant at that council meeting, I could not believe the "bored" expression and body language of Morgan. He didn't feel he should be there listening the us "peons" plead for our community, and rightfully so.  The 3 had their minds made up since their "straw vote" over a month ago. I wish a law was passed that all  campaign contributions in the amount of $500 from any one organization would have to be placed online in a central database that could be accessed by all citizens. It is too difficult for the ordinary citizen to try to obtain records thru regular channels. We find out too late about candidates receiving large amounts from special interest groups i.e. gambling industry. We were really railroaded in this town.

Was it an independent decision? Or was his decision that he will be able to overcome this vote with time and the campaign contributions he can expect from the Jax, Orange Park and St. Johns tracks? We have witnessed in the legislature that enough money can overcome any obstacles. Remember, councilman Morgan stated that we will forget about this vote and go on to something else.

It's fun to see Ron Raymond's comments here.  I'm surprised that he would use his real name however after the way he behaved at the meeting.  He's worried about Cummings, Renninger & Morgan - he should be worried about himself!  I was lucky enough to witness him almost punching a woman who accidentally bumped into him after being pushed aside by an amazon River Road resident.  I was also lucky enough to be there at the end when he shouted out like a spoiled school girl after the vote was final.  I commend him for having the guts to post here.  Good show!