Property Taxes

Vote for the Super Exemption this coming Jan. What an excellent example of what is wrong with the property taxes in the State of Florida. 

Marsha,

One of my rental properties taxes went up over 32%!  However, the value has almost doubled in the last 5 years. A trade-off I suppose. I did not find it more easy to take even with my value increase!

Angela,

I think the reason that prop. appraisers (all over the state) have "cracked down"and "caught up" the values is the coming changes (probable super exemption) I have done the math and if we in Clay County have only our usual apprecaition 3-4% per year, the super exemption will be a really good deal for the state at the 8-10 year mark and any homeowner that takes the super exemption and stays in their home long tem (like me) will get the short end of the financial deal. I think when the legistlature put the bill together, they looked long tern at THEIR expected revenue stream and smiled!

Our save our homes benefits which almost didn't pass but looking back saved some of our homes. What didn't happen was the Counties limiting their budgets to the 3% increase each year. When they found out they could get all that money from the new construction of homes, and then we had an explosion and they were feeding at the trough like pigs. More revenue than they knew what to do with.

People can opt to retain their homestead exemption. The new super exemption would have saved some of the homes that the owners are just leaving mostly in lower Florida. Where they have so many homes empty that people have just got up and moved Code Enforcement cannot even keep up with their jobs.

This explosion of home building has caused the same infrastruture problems all over the State of Florida.

With the hurricanes we have recently experienced in Florida has threaten the homeowners insurance and we will never get that fixed.

If we don't come up with something then unless we are very wealthy we will need to be planning for the next State we would like to locate too.

I think that the super exemption  will also have "them" at the feedin' trough too! It will just take a few years, not unlike the save our homes.  You have a great point about it helping South Florida homeowners, isn't it interesting that the legistlators that drove the bill are from south FL?   I may be mistaken, but if/when the bill passes, won't the save our homes be gone? With the exception of those who have it now and chose to retain it? 

The SOH has paid off big time for alot of people.  Here is an example, a Riverfront Home that has had the same homeowner since it was built in the late 70's, early 80's.  The true market value of the home is in excess of 800k, true market value of my other house is around 185K.  My assessment only 12K below a home that in reality is worth five times more.  

I don't begrudge people their exemptions, or their caps, most especially Senior Citizens who are on fixed incomes.

What is making me crazy is the inconsistency, or if I get to the nitty gritty of my opinion I feel it is incompetence, neglect, corruption, in any number of combinations, or a singular cause.  

I've been waiting an entire year to take issue with this because if you don't act inside of the very small window they give you to appeal then you're just out of luck.  That of course is in the SMALL PRINT of the notice.  I am repeating from the first blog I wrote on purpose so maybe some that don't read it all in the first will catch it in the second.

What worries me now is that with taxes being lowered that they're going to stick it to those of us who own properties with no homestead exemption.  It is going to make these properties unaffordable, they will be sold way below market value just to get out from under them and then that will effect EVERYONES property values and the housing market in general.

Bloggers forgive me in advance because like I said, I've been waiting for an entire year to pick a fight with the County Appraiser so I will be beating this subject to death. 

Yes the save our homes benefit will only be for the people who have it now. The super exemption should cap the new homes that have come into play. This should require counties to be forced to limit their budgets and cap it according to Florida Personal Income per Capita.

Due to the insurance problems and the property tax problems some of my friends house payments in lower Florida were increaed 500.00 a month due to those added expenses. The income did not cover the expenses and they had to leave their homes. If my house payment went up 500.00 per month I would need a second job because I don't think my work would be happy if I said I need a 500.00 a month raise or I will have to leave my home.

This is why it is important that people get involved and try to save our State for everybody because if we don't then those who cannot afford those type increases will need to move out for the people who can.

Hometown Democracy is a great start so we can stop this building if to do nothing other than catch up with what has already been built.

If we are going to live in Florida we will need to expect to pay higher insurance premiums its the cost of living in Florida.

Marsha a friend of mine who is a builder in Central Florida has builders in the area cutting prices by 20K to 30K just to sell the new houses they have built. That is what is going to hurt all of the housing market in Florida which has had 40% slump in new housing sales. This is why some of my friends have just left their homes. They can't compete with the home builders who just slashed 30k off their homes and them hoping to just get what they paid to prevent forclosure. Finally after having their homes on the market for 2 years just up and left.

Angela,

I understand the impact that the builders are having on values, it is part of my job.  Dumping inventory to increase cash flow is typical regardless of the market, although you are correct that it is becoming critical, and hurting the average homeowner which is an excellent example of just how community minded some are not. 

This is getting a little off point but since it's my blog I'm doing it anyway.  Some, not all Builders/Developers are so financially locked in from lines of credit that they cannot just pull out, they're committed for a certain length of time that in some cases may extend into  a minimum the next two years, and in some cases 10yrs for the really big boys.  That is why I am so adamant about the fact that over development is a steam roller that we're really not going to see the full effect of what is already in the hole for the next several years let alone what's going to happen if we don't just stop it dead in its tracks for awhile.

I really do want to stay on point with this blog though so I don't want to talk about Hometown Democracy or what I think of the growth etc.  No one is going to change my mind, and I am not going to try to change anyone else's ergo, no point in discussing it because I am not here to argue or debate. 

Back to County Property Taxes

The builders are the ones that are causing the property tax problems. They build new places to offset the SOH Floridians.

The Elected Officials give them the green light because it up revenues. It is a cycle that comes full circle at the doorstep of the property owners.

It will stop at our doorstep and it will come in the form of a tax bill we should all get by Monday. The millage rate will be 7.00 it will be the property values that are the test for the new amounts. We will know if it is the trough that makes elected officials happy with the new super exemption. If they are in favor they will feed, if they oppose it then it will be in our favor. Maybe we should contact our elected officials and see if they are for or against the super exemption.

Excellent test Janie, I will place my bet on they oppose the super exemption. Anything that limits their budget tends to rile them. Something they should have done themselves without Tallahassee stepping in to stop the trough feeding. Let me know what you find out.

Angela, please don't miss my point. I won't disagree with you at all, it is just a little off center of what my beef is, that something stinks with they way they are operating within the system that already exists.

Why did one investment property in the same subdivision as mine that had not been purchased within 12 monts go up only 4% while mine went up 23%, and I really feel sorry for the couple who resides in Maryland that owns a property in OPS because their assessment went up 49%.  There is an overall appreciation rate in the neighborhood, unless a home is improved dramatically (which mine was not) the increase in the assessment should be the same across the board.

This blog isn't about changing anything, it's about the equitable, and/or balanced application of the tax assessment code as it exists in the here and now.

Clueless in Clay since you own an investment property do you have access to a Realtor who can help you identify rentals in that area? 

Marsha I get the point we have people in our county that are getting homestead exemptions they are not entitled too. We have people who are paying no property taxes. We have a myriad of problems such as the disparaging taxing of properties within subdivisions and in our county. Why? good question. 

I have seen public records that have been sent to the Governor that addresses these problems and requesting solutions and relief because people are losing their homes. I think the Governor is doing what he can to help fix the problems. Even if Tallahassee has to set the millage rate for all of the entire State. Drastic yes, but at least it has a system.

I am not sure of what we have at the present. I do know the super exemption will provide a better system and a way of tracking property taxes because it caps the people who use the property taxes the Commissioners, and hopefully fix some of this mess. Maybe voting a couple of these people out of office, like those who appraise properties may be a good start too.

When you have all the building, then people within neighborhoods who have SOH, and then rentals and others it is hard to track because in some neighborhoods there are people paying all kinds of different tax rates as you expressed.

I think it is all connected. I would suggest you write the Governor and join the long list of people who are demanding something be done and then vote some of these people out of office and vote to cap those Commissioners.

Because I know of people that have been to the property appraiser's office and it was a fight.

For those of you who have an interest, here is what I discovered on the Property Taxes for OPS where I own a non homesteaded property.

Last year taxable values rose 4-49% on non homesteaded properties.  When you consider that the increase in assessments is supposed to be based upon sales in the subdivision it made no sense.

This year, I have looked at 21 investment properties in the subdivision and the increases again have a very wide range of 1-27%

I found about 8 properties that are rented and still receiving exemptions.  They could be military families, no way to find that out through public records.

My next project is to look at the Property Cards of some of our local Politicians but here is a teaser for you.  1497 Melbourne Cove Ct is a non homesteaded property owned by a local politician.  The increase in the assessment was 2%, which is below the cap for homesteaded properties.  Last year there was a 20% increase, and this year it is below the cap.......inconsistent at best.

The increase on my property this year was apx 8%, a far more reasonable increase then last years 23% however just because I have no beef with mine in general does not mean I am going to walk away. 

If assessments are based upon sales in the immediate area then there should not be this wide of a gap. 

Marsha, years ago whe freinds of mine made a mandatory move with the military, they were identified with   "/mil" behind their name in the courthouse records. It may still be that way.

Marsha, the problem with the internet and blogs is that just about anyone can be an expert on anything they choose.  Claiming corruption in a government office is a pretty bold accusation, and I was curious when I read what you wrote about a local politician and his non-homesteaded property.  As usual I was disapointed when I did the math on my own when come to find out John Thrasher, that's right at least have the guts to say his name, recieved a 13.028% increase in his market value from last year.  Much higher than the 2% you claim he recieved.  I'm sorry your increase this year was not what you hoped but who know's do the math again maybe it was higher than you thought.  Don't yell fire when you create the smoke.

1. No where in any of my blogs have I claimed to be an expert on ANYTHING!

2. No where in this thread have I accused anyone of corruption, I believe what I said was something stinks and it's inconsistent.  In other blogs about taxes I have used a variety of terms for possibilities.

3. You need to check your figures again.  Yes last year the taxes on that property were indeed near the percentage you gave.  This year however the increase was only 2%  I don't have to mention any names if I dont care to, it has nothing to do with guts.  When you are a public servant you open yourself up for scrutiny. 

The front page on he county site for the property shows the new assessment, the property card itself shows last years.

4. I actually DID NOT complain about how much mine went up, I complained about the inconsistencies.

Anything else?????

What is making me crazy is the inconsistency, or if I get to the nitty gritty of my opinion I feel it is incompetence, neglect, corruption, in any number of combinations, or a singular cause.  

2007 Value $256,192

2006 Value $226,661

Difference $29,531 or 13.028%

Are we talking taxes or market value value?  Last I checked the county appraiser handles value not taxes.

I printed out property cards last year when I WAS complaining about how much the assessed value on my house went up, taxes are based upon that.

I did go back and check, and you are right.  I went through over 20 property cards and somewhere in the mix got it confused with something else. 

I stand corrected and make no excuses.  

It doesn't change the basic issue which is the lack of consistency within a particular subdivision on non homesteaded properties.  1-27% is too wide a range.  One property went up only 1% and 1 property went up 27% and all the others fell somewhere between the two ends.   

Can you clear this up as well?

Marsha, comparing assesments will drive you crazy.  Save our Homes and exemptions have caused these inconsistencies within neighborhoods.  So many factors can affect the assesed value of a dwelling.  To truly measure incosistincies you have to look at the market value of properties because that value is not affected by the cap or exemptions.  From what I understand the only value you can petition is market value so arguing assessed is pointless.

I think I have caused confusion with terms so let me try to be more technically correct.

If you look at the front page that comes up when you pull up Clay Property Cards and look at the line that has the "Certified Values as of Last Years Tax Rolls"  you will see the land value,etc.  I am talking about the "taxable value"  SOH has nothing to do with properties that ARE NOT homesteaded.  Only on a home where there exists an exemption is the market value and taxable value different. 

I still believe that you are not working with all the information that you need.  Are there going to be mistakes and inconsistincies when appraising 80,000+ parcels every year I would imagine so but that is a far cry from deliberate manipulation of the tax roll. 

Wow, you really got under this guy's skin. Not even I have gotten such snotty replies from people and I usually am doing my best to do so. :>)

I'm with you. Even though we must tolerate critters such as Thrasher, it does no good to give them attention. If only they would slither back to whatever rock they crawled out from under.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Deliberate manipulation is only one of several possibilities that were recognized in my blog and what you have implied about me is a far cry from being accurate. 

I do however thank you because overall you corrected something I said that was incorrect. No agenda, just a mistake, and one which will prevent me from repeating it and will remind me to check, and double check and triple check before I say anything again. 

I appreciate the support.  Aside from the snottiness it always makes me laugh when someone signs up and the first thing out of their mouths is to find fault.  Spelling Police, Grammar Guard etc.  I guess when you get out here in a public forum you are a target for the Snotty Syndicate.

I did have my figures wrong and appreciate that being corrected but it could have been done without the tude

Regarding our conversation on Friday I apoligize for coming across with some attitude.  I have enjoyed reading these blogs from time to time and it's nice to see Clay County citizens with some intelligent points of view.  I decided to respond on Friday because as we both agree your information you stated was just incorrect.  The problem I am still having is for you to compare that mistake to a mispelled word or improper grammer.  Regardless of how you believe you worded your comments, you implied maleficence and that causes more damage than a simple mispelled word.  Uncontested, accusations like these are taken as the gospel by some people who might read them.  The chances of someone reading your comment and doing their own research on the subject are probably slim, especially since most people automatically lean torwards local government being corrupt.  Having had some experience on the assesment side of government I believe Clay County does a pretty good job.  If you have a problem, schedule a meeting with someone in the office and point out the errors you believe they have made rather than taking it to the streets, I would bet you will come away with at minimum a better understanding of the process.

If my blogs on Property Taxes bore you then I invite you to ignore them, that is what I do when someone is saying something I don't like when it's a matter of opinion or am uninterested.  If you'd read all of my entries on the matter at hand you would know that I intend to address this issue with the Appraisers Office.  However, since I am not objecting to the increase in my own assessment but want to know why the spread is so large I will wager to guess that they will not address it.  They didn't last year.

My intent in blogging about it is to inform other property owners that may be in the same boat I am in yet may not realize it.  As with anything else, you have a much better chance of getting something done if there is more then one squeaky wheel.

Incorrect assessments add up, in either denying the county revenue, or in their getting more then what they should.  They may do a "pretty good" job, but they need to do better.  Anytime there is such a wide spread like this it is some sort of inequity that some are benefitting from at the suffering of others. 

If you are experienced on the Assessment side of the Goverment then why do you not answer the question about the spread?   I extended the opening for you to "clear this up"  yet you didn't, you just found more fault with what I said, in one way or another. 

Appraising is an "Opinion of Value", and even though I am recognized by the State as being a Licensed Professional I would never declare myself an expert because I don't believe I am one, and there would be several thousand other Appraisers who would just love to cut me down in my tracks, and they would because so much of Appraising involves an opinion. However, I am not ignorant and have nearly 10yrs of experience. 

In Appraising you define the scope of the work, you gather all pertinent information, and apply all the required rules of law and formulate an "Opinion of Value"  I recognize there is more then one way to skin a cat but what is going on in this one subdivision there is no way for me to reconcile the spread as I would have to if I am giving an Opinion of Value on just one home.  If it is that important for just one, then is it not so much more important when you are talking many more.  

The State of Florida legally considers the home I own just a few miles away from where I live to be "abandoned" once that homestead exemption was removed.  Considering it is being maintained, utilities have been on since it was built, people are living in it, and there is an up to date mtg on it, and taxes and insurance have been paid on it by me since it was built that designation is false and misleading, yet it's right there in the law. 

If you want to help your friends in the Appraisers Office then offer me an explanation that makes sense and I will be more then happy to move onto something else.  As it is my 2 sets of taxes pay their salaries and I have a right to question what they're doing in any forum I so choose and to communicate with my fellow citizens. 

Marsha you started this blog about property taxes a while back. I thought you would be interested to know that Florida Tax Watch has again proposed to the legislature to change the laws. Contact your legislators and let them know about how you feel about property taxes not being equal or on a level playing field. In numbers they seem to hear the people.

Taxpayers generally have a difficult time prevailing in assessment disputes. Perhaps the major reason is that a taxpayer challenging their valuation is required to overcome government’s presumption of correctness by a clear and convincing evidence standard, rather than just a preponderance of the evidence.

Removing this presumption of correctness the property appraiser enjoys would help level the playing field. Florida TaxWatch has recommended this change since 1996 and strongly urges the Legislature to use the standard of “preponderance of evidence” now used predominantly in Florida’s civil laws.

Thanks for the heads up Angela! I believe I will do just what you suggested.  I have a nice thick packet of information the Appraisers Office sent to me regarding their criteria and justification for the assessments in the s/d that I am taking issue with.  I've not been able to wade through it all completely yet but I will.  It is however another example of how goverment cannot function in a precise and efficient manner and always takes ten turns to get somewhere when a straight line would suffice. 

Marsha;

I couldn't agree more. The way assessments are set seems to be way too subjective. I can see that just by looking at the figures on homes on the street I live on.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme or reason to some of them. As to people having exemptions on more than on property, it isn't real hard to find them. I'm not sure why the county can't tighten this up.

But then, I still don't understand how you can live in a brand new house for nearly a year and still pay on unimproved land. I never have figured out why they don't do a suplemental tax bill to make everyone pay their fair share. 

Finder