Poker Room Workshop

I attended the Workshop and listened to both sides of the argument.  The folks who argued that the introduction of a poker room would lead to increased crime and debauchery need to do some more research.  When they take the time to ask communities that have inroduced poker rooms in existing gaming facilities in Florida they will find no appreciable increase in crime.  As one speaker pointed out, we know of more crime at the Orange Park Mall than here at the Kennel Club.

A number of residents stated they moved into the community due to quality of life, of which we all agree, note also they majority moved knowing full well the Kennel Club was in operation.  Actually in it's hey day it was teaming with thousands of people and the main source of entertainment in town, the social center if you like.  

The Kennel Club seeks to expand their business model as interest in greyhound racing has waned.  Why not?  They have been a good community business and have "paid the bills" in the town.  The Town Council will be biting the hand that feeds it by rejecting the Poker Room.

Let's move on people!  We all want our local government to provide us with services, but someone has to pay for this. Is the Town Council going to reject additional revenue form an expansion of an existing business?  Of course not.  I am sure communities around us would jump at the chance and even offer incentives to businesses like the Kennel Club.

Jobs!, Growth, Increased Tax Revenue, a no- brainer !

I don't live in OP, and accept that this issue falls into the "Community standards" category.  If the community, through its council, wants it, they should have it.  I don't think it is a good thing, but again, I don't live in OP.  My concern is the slippery slope concern.  OK - poker is a "good" neighbor - pays taxes, doesn't increase crime, provides more jobs, etc.  How about porn shops?  How head shops?  How about topless bars?  The same investors & lawyers could make very convincing arguments that these businesses are "good" for OP too.  Pay taxes, no crime, more jobs, and so on.

If we are so hard up for taxes, why not legalize drugs.  You can already smoke yourself & drink yourself to death, all the while paying plenty of taxes to the government.  Why not legalize marijuana, or cocaine, or whatever else can be tapped for job creation and tax revenue.  Don't even try to tell me that any of those drugs are any worse for society than alcohol or tobacco.  I can see it now - a bright green NASCAR car with a huge pot leaf on the hood.  Oh, no - can't have that, but the bright red Budweiser car is OK.  Budweiser hasn't killed anyone has it?

One man's poker room is another man's crack house.  The OP Town Council has the priviledge, given the authority by our esteemed legislature, to pass judgement on this matter.  Maybe it's time to ask Tallahassee to open other avenues for even more tax money.  Nevada has prostitution, Alaska has marijuana, Duval County has plenty of "gentlemans'" clubs.  It's not like we'd be plowing up any new ground.

I am SO glad that I live in the unincorporated part of the county, and that the OP Town Council can only ruin OP, and not Clay Hill.

Businesses tend to want to grow. So just like the dog track they want to expand to poker rooms, and after a while it will be the need to expand to full casinos. You can just look to Atlantic City NJ the home of cheap motel rooms and cheap food and spend all your money in the casinos. I see somebody getting a benefit here but I am not certain its the residents of Orange Park or the citizens of Clay County. Financial pages has their worth listed at 37.5 million.

What OP will get is a couple of jobs, the added traffic, added crime, and only a small portions of the revenue off the taxes. The rest goes straight to Tallahassee which would explain why this little piece of legislation passed without a sound. Government is just like businesses they tend to want to grow, too. The only part about that is when governments grow they cost me money. Just look at the situation with Peyton and the discovery of his contract debacles where he proposed adding new government jobs to the payroll to oversee government employees who didn't do their job to begin with. In the same statement he proposed new fees (taxes) on the residents. When will we wake up citizens. 

The Poker Room will create more than a couple of jobs.  It will create over 120 at the OPKC.  Servers who work at the great restaurants near The Poker Room will wait on more customers and make more money and the restaurants where they work might even see fit to do more hiring themselves. Orange Park will get more tax revenue. It will get tax revenue from the Poker Room, tax revenue from dollars spent in the town by visitors to the poker room, and a large portion of the $7 million (million...with an "M")  worth of salaries will be spent here (more tax money) thus creating more jobs where money earned is spent and likewise taxed.  Isn't econmics grand?

The Poker Room will not create a traffic hassle.  Visitors to the Poker room will be coming and going over a twelve hour period.  The Poker Room would close at midnight, not a time of day not notorious for traffic woes.  The Poker room will not create more crime.  The area around the Poker Room in ST. John's county hasn't become a slum filled with drug dealers and prostitutes and the like.  Houses worth between 350 thousand and 500 thousand dollars are being built RIGHT NEXT DOOR to the facility in St John's County. Frankly, I'm tired of opponents of the Poker Room invoking Atlantic City as a point of comparison instead of the more obvious comparison of a facility in a neighboring county. I can only deduce that they make this comparison because there is nothing about the Poker Room in SJC that  would scare people over to their side of the argument.  Also, I think my fellow citizens in Orange Park are smart enough to research this themselves and that their opinions won't be swayed by mis-information

"Majority of those there speaking for it were employees who lived everywhere but in the town of Orange Park".

Actually, the employees who spoke live in Orange Park, just not the "Town of Orange Park". The "Town of Orange Park" is only 3 miles square and there can't be a very large population because most of the town is taken up by businesses (several closed and/or abandoned right on the main drag into town!)

Just because you say something with conviction, doesn't make it true!

The St Johns location of the Poker Rooms is an entirely different type location. If the St Johns location was so great for surrounding businesses then why are they building all those houses out there instead of businesses? Businesses build where they can make money.  

The Orange Park location is in a small city. The groundwork is already laid out for the Atlantic City version complete with what I would call some shady motels. That is exactly what they have in both Las Vega and Atlantic City cheap rooms and cheap food and all the gambling you would ever need. This area has become a high crime corridor in our county that according to the Sheriff has slithered across the line from Jacksonville.

As far as the jobs, I have yet to find a bus boy for tables or those who will clean the facilities that makes 50K per year avg. If you compare how many jobs will go to the dealers and security and how many will be the support jobs you will find the majority of jobs will be the low paying support jobs.

If the OPKC plans on paying the support jobs 50K per year avg. Then they are anticipating a huge number of people using the facility and there will be your traffic problems. The State of Florida has already hit Clay County on the tourist impact and the lack of roads to support traffic in our area without the expansion. Those are not my figures or the OPKC figures but the State's determination. I don't think I have to remind the citizens about our traffic problems we deal with everyday in this county.

Another very important fact that must be considered is the request for expansion of the Dog Track to Poker Rooms and they say it is because of the lack of interest in the dog tracks. Down the road we will hear the same reasons for continued expansion of the Poker Rooms to a casino type facility. It is not what Clay County has today but what the future will be and where the County wants to go with its future. I think Clay County is well aware of the lack of proper planning, which is the reason we have so many problems today. The citizens need to get involved in our future because evidently our elected officials are very shortsighted. What do the citizens of Clay County want the doorway to their community to look like in the future?

A large majority of people in support of the Poker Rooms at the workshop were not from the "Town" of Orange Park. The people who live in the "Town" of Orange Park will have the opportunity to vote these elected officials out of office if they do not represent your vision of the future. I would not call that a threat no more than when these elected officials ran for office and asked the voters to support them and they would support the people of the "Town" of Orange Park. Was that a threat to vote for them?

Again we have statements without homework.

80-100 new poker room employees making $45,000-$50,000 per year

The rest making different wages based on the type of work they do.  I found this out by calling the KC and asking them.

And Marsha,  the residents of Clay can have the doorway looking like a vacant building with paint peeling and over grown grass or maybe a huge Super Walmart wouldn't that be nice for traffic?

Marsha, when was the last time you drove down Racetrack Road from San Jose?  It is not just houses.  That whole area is growing.

As for crime then I think we should close the Orange Park Mall up right now.  Maybe the ones commiting crimes at the mall have "slithered" (shame on you Marhsa) from Jacksonville so if we close the mall and the track we won't have any crime left right?

lamann93--For the record, I was the one making the statements NOT Marsha. I don't want to get Marsha associated with my realistic views that sometimes get called negative. 

I will say ANYONE who discounts the cost to the citizens of Orange Park and Clay County concerning the addition of Poker Rooms in the OPKC including the Council of the Town of Orange Park is not a rational thinking person.

The most exhaustive study "Casinos, Crime & Community Cost" of gambling impacts used data from every county in the nation from 1977 to 1996. It found significant increases in crimes could be contributed to gambling in counties.

In the terms of some added jobs and other economic development which is obvious. What is less obvious but makes a higher impact on these counties is additional pathological gambling, lost wages, money diverted from other businesses to gambling and crime. Those are just facts you can either accept them, or live in your gambling world of denial.

The Town of Orange Park and the citizens of Clay County would be just as irrational not to concede the impacts of more traffic jams, increased costs for local police, fire and paramedics and social services to Orange Park. Some local businesses may make profits while others will be wiped out. I hope those businesses on Wells Road are paying close attention because it may be yours.

As far as the building being vacated that might not be such a bad idea. Because I am still in awe as to why McDonalds pays 16K per year in real estate taxes on taxable value, and the OPKC only pays 14K on their taxable value. Something about that picture just doesn't look right. After all who would not want a prime piece of real estate just a couple of blocks away from a major Interstate called I-295. Why do you think Michaels on Blanding moved from their location up to I-295? Location Location Location.

Maybe we should ride to the St Johns Kennel Club from US1 while we are taking the scenic tour down Racetrack Road. Then you can see both sides of the issues.

As far as the comment about the crime that has "slithered" across the line from Jacksonville that should be addressed to the Sheriff. Because that seems to be the only excuse that he can come up with when we are having significant increases in crimes, record murders in Clay County, record deaths on our roads, and low clearance rates since he was elected. Any law enforcement official who would tell you that gambling does not bring increases in crimes then I would have to question their judgment. However in lower Florida the police union came out in favor of the slot machines and expanded casinos. That was the first time I've ever seen police as advocates for crimes. All businesses bring crimes even if it is an ATM machine in the middle of a parking lot with no employees. Criminals seem to be attracted to opportunities.The Orange Park Mall offers bussinesses that accomodates the entire community while the OPKC will be limited to gamblers part time or pathological.

If the Town of Orange Park wanted to do the right thing for the community let them send it to the people for a vote. If the people who live in the Town of Orange Park want it they will vote in favor of the Poker Rooms. If not, they will vote no. End of story. That's a win win for everybody.

Angela thank you for trying to clear the obvious confusion.

lamann93 you are either confusing your blogs and your bloggers or you just want to pick a fight.

I'm not part of this debate, I commented only on the different things people use to form opinions.

I read the Casino Crime and Community synopsis, and I decided to look at the authors.  Grinols is best noted for his association with a Christian Economist association and Mustard's own biographical page shows him to be a devout Christian.  While I have my own personal doubts about the benefit of a poker room in OP, I do have doubts about any study performed by the two people I just mentioned.  The aren't criminologists, they aren't law enforcement professionals, they are economists who have a decidedly Christian bias.  As a matter of fact Grinols has written articles on sin.  I always look at the authors of articles which are supposed to be experts on a topic.  They may be experts, but they don't appear to be looking at the issue through clear glass lenses.  By the way, before anyone goes off on me about harassing Christians, let me clear the air.  I am a Christian.  Anything may become a sin if it is done to excess.  Does the sale of lottery tickets increase crime?  I have seen many people buy cigarettes, beer and $20 worth of lottery tickets.  Is that a sin, well, it is if they aren't providing for their family.  What about all the millions that charities have generated by little old ladies playing Bingo?  What about raffles by churches?  We need to question everything we read, especially if we agree 100% with it...after all if we are biased, we never see the bias of someone who agrees with us.

Casinos in Florida
An analysis of the Economic and Social Impacts

Prepared by:
The Executive Office of the Governor
Office of Planning and Budgeting
The Capitol
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0001

I would suggest this as another excellent read if you are for gambling in Florida and its about the money.

You can find some excellent reports concerning Economics and Law as well. 

Florida Dept of Law Enforcement has a different opinion in this report they published.

Casino Gambling: Is it A Good Bet for Florida’s Future?

Gary J. Yates

People in the Town of Orange Park should make that choice by vote.

I don't live in OP, so I am sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, but, thanks to MCS, I get to do just that.

I don't usually think every contraversial decision should be decided by a special vote, but I do agree in this case that giving every voter in OP a shot at this one would once & for all resolve the matter.  It would also remove any political heat from the OP Town Council.

No one can argue that more commerce will produce more taxes.  But at what price?  If the residents of OP are comfortable with having an even larger portion of their town budget funded by proceeds from gambling - go for it.

The councilmen who will make the decision were elected by the voters who live inside the municipal corporation of the Town of Orange Park. 

Their responsibility or representation does not extend beyond the corporate limits.

The confusion associated with where one lives is because of the US Postal Service jurisdiction.