Stop "Hometown Democracy"

Yes, I think I do.  It was easy to find out. 

Agriculture: at a maximum density of one (1) unit per twenty (20) acres. In addition, the total number of permits for single-family dwelling units shall not  exceed a maximum of 50 per calendar year within the Agriculture land use category.

read44

Are you willing to look up anywhere from 50-100 of those every election cycle? Are you willing to physically visit the location to see what the landowner is asking and consider who will be affected by the land use change?

Here's a chance for the people to protect state Mike Thomas COMMENTARY August 12, 2007 Go to the Web site floridahometowndemocracy.com. There you will find a petition. Print several copies. Pass them around. This has to do with the future of Florida. Here is the deal: Counties and cities draw up growth management plans on large poster boards. As soon as they are done, developers ask for changes allowing 2,983 homes in that cattle pasture down in the bottom left corner. These are people who have long contributed to political campaigns. Their voice is heard in City Hall. Residents object to the sprawl the development will cause. The developer compromises by cutting the project to 2,982 homes. Approved! The next year, since there already are 2,982 homes way out in the cow pastures, why not let this other guy add another 1,342. And before you know it, you have Alafaya Trail. A group called Florida Hometown Democracy wants to put a referendum on the 2008 ballot that would require voter approval of growth plans. If Orlando wanted to put a Wal-Mart where it doesn't belong, the people of Orlando would have to agree. Your signature on the above petition is required to accomplish that. This is a bombshell in the good-old-boy system by which Florida is being paved. The notion that developers and political leaders would have to justify their dealings to the public has panicked the entire Growth Industrial Complex in Florida. Their business model is based on growth plans that are drawn in invisible ink. And so the Florida Chamber of Commerce, the home builders and the sugar growers are all lined up to nip this in the bud. Knowing they can't win on the merits of their past actions, they have resorted to their bag of dirty tricks. The Florida Chamber of Commerce refers to disruption, disorder and astronomical costs the amendment would cause. People would be forced to vote all the time on stuff they're too stupid to understand. My gosh, the entire state would implode. And all of this is the doing of "extreme special interests." Meet them yourself. They are Ross Burnaman and Lesley Blackner, two small-time lawyers on a Don Quixote mission to save the state of their birth. Ross once worked for the Department of Community Affairs, the state's planning agency. He is the rare attorney who put his government experience to work protecting Florida rather than getting rich helping developers bulldoze it. "We are two homegrown Floridians who see the way things work, and have watched the state go down the tubes," he says. "I grew up in Winter Park. I cry when I go back there." They don't have a dime in their election war chest to go up against the millions the other side has pledged it will spend squashing them. "The only deep pocket we've had so far is me," says Lesley. She has spent almost a half-million dollars of her money on the effort. Ross can't afford that. He spends his time, which for a lawyer is the same as money. They aren't getting much help. Most of Florida's mainstream environmental groups, like Florida Audubon, are sitting this out. "They have been co-opted into the status quo," says Ross. "They are part of the problem." The groups have their reasons, chief among them is that even if the amendment passes, the developers and their lackeys in the Legislature will find ways around it. Download the petition anyway. Make sure you send it in. It makes a statement if nothing else. "I'm determined to get this on the ballot," says Lesley. "But people have to take the time to be citizens." Mike Thomas can be reached at 407-420-5525 or mthomas@orlandosentinel.com. His blog is OrlandoSentinel.com/mikethomas Copyright © 2007, Orlando Sentinel

At this time it's is about just getting something on the ballot for the people to vote on, and I hope it makes it.  I've been passing out petitions for months.

Don't believe people who tell you that you're not competent enough to vote intelligently on such things.  I work with Land Use in my job alllll the time and it is not rocket science.  The cliche that citizens at large are not intelligent enough to understand it all is "Political Poppycock"

Anything that returns "Power to the People" I am for

I need to to read more about Hometown Democracy and I will.

In the meantime, the County site that I pulled the agricultural land use density information from will no longer open up.  The page is unavailable and cannot be found.  Everything else I checked was working but that information was not.

I think I am very afraid to talk to you any longer, Key2life, or at least to talk back to you.

read44

Be afraid, but not of me...be afraid of the legislation we're being asked to vote on. It's absolutely frightening to me to realize what this constiutional amendment is asking of voters. And I'm much less confident of voters' ability to intellectually understand this complex issue much less vote in an informed way.

That's why I followed up your post with another set of qualifying questions. This is not about returning power to the people, it's about setting in motion a process whereby the School District will have to wait until an election year to ask permission of the voters to make a land-use change to pull permits to build a school. Tack on 1-2 more years of time it will take to get a school built. There goes school concurrency.

It hasn't been that many years ago that we learned Florida voters have problems connecting the arrows on a ballot.

The authors of this amendment knew if they could get enough signatures and move the issue to a state referendum, they have a better than 50-percent chance of it passing because voters start checking, "Yes" on the ballot and do not read what they're voting for.

Statistics back that statement...not K2L.

Hometown Democracy

Re "Rival initiatives on growth won't do the job for Florida," July 19 editorial:

It was a surprise to read a News-Journal editorial against the Florida Hometown Democracy amendment. It was not a surprise that the newspaper is against Floridians for Smarter Growth, as it is just a counterattack by the money-hungry developers, big landowners, homebuilders and real estate agents who want to exploit Florida for their own greedy needs.

We elect officials we believe will be responsible with the growth of Florida and will protect our environment, wildlife, waterways and trees. To our disappointment, these representatives just seem to love every developer and big landowner who comes before them with some new reason to have higher densities on land that ought to be saved. This just destroys our lovely state.

For the 40 years that I have been a Florida resident, I have observed this happening over and over again.

The editorial even stated this. Yet the writer seems to think we can elect officials who will represent our beliefs. We have tried this for years with much frustration. Now we must embrace Florida Hometown Democracy as our only way of finally protecting Florida from irresponsible profit-seeking developers, big landowners and homebuilders.

The experts in land use and environmental law, urban planning, public service and conservation management are the ones who designed the comprehensive plans in the hope of keeping Florida a beautiful state. Smart growth has already been included in these plans. Florida Hometown Democracy will give voters the right to adhere to the experts' original plans, not to make uninformed decisions about changing them. It will inhibit three or four commissioners, influenced by greedy developers and landowners, from changing the plans of these experts who spent years researching and developing them.

We must now take matters into our own hands and pass the Florida Hometown Democracy amendment in order to save our Florida.

We the people must do the job that our elected officials over the years have failed at so miserably.

MARION WOOSLEY, Flagler Beach

And they're off!

read44, like you, I wanted to learn as much as possible about this Constitutional Amendment before I weighed in.  I'll confess, I can't recite the ballot summary by heart (yet), but I have done some serious research.  The issue of changing a state constitution every time somebody gets a "good" idea (unfunded high-speed rail, pregnant pigs, etc.) is a great subject for another blog.  Hopefully someone will give it a shot.  Citizen initiatives cannot put a new Florida State Law onto the ballot for citizens to consider, but, they can be used to amend the State Constitution.  Go figure.  Seems the Florida Legislature wants the law making ability to itself.  By the way, the Clay County Charter does permit new ordinances to be placed on the ballot following a successful Citizens Initiative.

Hometown Democracy, if placed on the ballot and approved by a 60% majority of voters, will in fact change the face of Florida.  It's a good thing we are all already here and have "ours", because there won't be many more if this passes.  "GREAT", you say, "that's exactly what I want - I already have mine."

OK.  Try for a minute to think logically.  If every land use change becomes a ballot item, then anyone - institutional (hospital, school, etc.), commercial, residential, local government, etc. who requests a land use change will have to campaign for it just like running for office.  To be brief, the price of everything associated with the land use change will . . . go up.  Any cost incurred by a business will be passed on to the end user - you.  Housing will get even more expensive, retail products will have to be more expensive, and so on.  If you don't believe it, tell me how & who will pay for the cost of running these land use campaigns, and where that cost will be borne.

Talk about grinding to a halt, this will be a real monkey wrench in an already sluggish bureacracy.  I agree with Key that a system is in place to consider land use changes.  The problem is not the system, but the people WE elect (if you bother to vote) to say yea or nay.  It'll be really interesting to see what the 20% or so of registered voters who bother to vote will do with this new voting opportunity.

Personally, I don't see it passing.  My understanding is that the group responsible is about 50% there with signatures, and will likely get the item on the ballot.  But convincing people that turning out to vote for every single land use change is another thing.

What's next?  Voting for every item on a BCC agenda.  Why don't we just get rid of our representatives altogether, and have monthly elections to decide everything ourselves.  You're right, it is a bad idea.  So is Hometown Democracy.  There is already a way for people to be involved, but most choose to sit back and watch, then scream like a scalded dog when it doesn't go their way.

PS - If you haven't seen it yet, YouTube has a video of Penn & Teller collecting signatures to ban dihydrous oxide (aka H2O, aka water).  People blindly sign away thinking they are doing a good thing.  Sounds familiar.

Baxley,

You made several great points in your posting but the one that sticks out in my mind is the point about every land-use change becoming a political campaign. I hadn't even thought of it but you're right.

If there are 75 land-use ballot requests, can you imagine how littered our landscape will be with all of the campaign signs, unsolicited phone calls and campaign literature landing in our mail boxes?

And the cost of doing business (as a result of the campaign and long election wait) will go up expotentially.

Participate in your government now and say "No" against Hometown Democracy.

After thinking about my previous comment, I wanted to add just a bit more.

Growth management, or lack thereof, IS a problem for all of Florida, not just Clay County.  Most everyone would agree with that statement.  But I feel like a Hometown Democracy Amendment (HDA) to the Florida State Constitution would be an emotional, knee-jerk reaction to a problem that has occured over decades. 

The population has exploded because of the quality of life (QOL) of Florida.  That means a lot of different things to people.  Mild weather if you are from up north, no state income taxes which brings high income earners like atheletes, entertainers, etc. People move here for a lot of different reasons.  For years and years "Florida" has welcomed them with open arms and lax growth management.  If a few subdivisions were good, then a lot of subdivisions would be great, right?  Wrong.  Too much of a good thing has gone bad.  Overcrowded everything - roads, schools, you name it. 

But, to me, "Florida" sees what has happened, and we are starting to do something about it.  The 2006 St. Johns BCC election is a perfect example.  Our own P&Z Commission is showing a renewed sense of patience and scrutiny as it recently reviewed the Highlands DRI Comp Plan Amendment application.  It recommended denial of transmittal 7-0 until the developer makes commitments to address transportation and other impacts.  On Aug. 28, we can see what the developer offers, and how the BCC responds.  One thing is certain.  It appears the rubber stamp of days gone by has been put away, at least for now.  There is a new "yellow light" to growth.  No more automatic green light.  The HDA wants a red light.

I feel like the HDA is too drastic of an effort to re-apply some control on growth.  We have a system that when worked properly can manage growth.  All of us should be concerned about local & state politicians who make it too easy for developers to profit and run.  But not all developers fall into that category.  Many are first class businesses run by first class people who are happy to comply with whatever is asked of them.

I say let's work our current system, making adjustments where necessary, and get serious about electing people who want to retain what's left of our great QOL.  There is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

No matter what, you have to admit, this debate will educate us all, and provides lots of stuff to talk about.  Though I may disagree with the premise of the HDA, I appreciate the effort to bring it forward.  I just wish they would try to work on the current system.

Baxley,

It's not so broke that we can't fix it with citizen involvement.

That's what we all want: Marsha, pioneer, Angela...

Citizen participation: It is achievable without such a drastic amendment.

K2L

Amendments pit builders against smart growth activist

by Dara Kam, Palm Beach Post |
Jul 27, 2007

A home builder policital committee is introducing their own measure to counter the Hometown Democracy Amendement.

TALLAHASSEE — Florida voters in 2008 may face two competing changes to the state constitution - one backed by a Palm Beach attorney, the other by businesses - dealing with how much influence residents will have over growth in their communities.

The first is backed by Lesley Blackner, who has worked for more than four years to put her Hometown Democracy constitutional amendment, an initiative that gives developers the shivers, on the November 2008 ballot.

Blackner's petition would require voters to consider all changes to comprehensive land-use plans, the growth strategies that lay out what gets built where and encompass everything from convenience stores to strip malls to mega-dwelling developments. If voters did not approve them, they could not happen.

Her proposal, still hundreds of thousands of signatures away from the number required to make it onto the 2008 ballot, has ignited builders and the business community, which together are not only trying to kill the Hometown Democracy amendment but are contradicting a long-standing opposition to citizens' initiatives by launching one of their own.

Floridians for Smarter Growth Inc., a political committee backed almost exclusively by home builders, opened a campaign account in April and already has collected more than $800,000 to get its measure on the 2008 ballot.

Its amendment would keep the status quo system for changes in land-use plan changes and would let residents vote on a change only if 10 percent or more of the communities' registered voters sign a petition at the local supervisor of elections office.

"They're desperate hypocrites," Blackner said in a telephone interview.

Not so, argued Michael Caputo, who has managed GOP campaigns and petition drives in four countries and works for Floridians for Smarter Growth.

Caputo said Blackner and Tallahassee attorney Ross Burnaman, who helped craft Blackner's amendment, want to squelch any growth in Florida, which is bad for the economy, businesses and development industries.

"This thing should have been nipped in the bud. It wasn't. Now we're faced with a campaign where we we're required to fight them on any battlefield they choose," Caputo said. "If the chamber has to hold its nose in order to kill this idea, they've come to terms with that."\

The Florida Chamber of Commerce backed an amendment passed in 2006 that made it more difficult to pass changes to the constitution by requiring approval by at least 60 percent of voters. And it backed a state law passed this year that allows petition signers to take back their support.

"We're not opposed to constitutional amendments," said Adam Babington, who heads the chamber's constitutional amendments efforts. "We're opposed to bad ideas in the constitution. And we're opposed to special interests buying their way onto the ballot and into the constitution."

The chamber's support of the new initiative is aimed at befuddling voters, Burnaman said. "Ours is a legitimate citizens' initiative effort. Theirs is a Trojan horse designed to confuse voters and derail our amendment," he said.

Blackner has spent more than $435,000 of her own money, nearly half the total collected by Hometown Democracy thus far, over the past four years to back the effort, according to campaign reports.

The owner of Tampa 's Mons Venus strip club contributed more than $27,000 and the Sierra Club Florida Chapter has given more than $100,000 over three years.

On the other side, Floridians for Smarter Growth collected $841,000, including $550,000 from the National Association of Homebuilders, in just three months. Caputo said Floridians for Smarter Growth and its backers are willing to spend "as much as it takes to defeat this proposal."

The Florida Supreme Court has approved the ballot language for Blackner's amendment, and she has about 278,797 of the 611,009 signatures she needs by the Feb. 1 deadline, according to the state Division of Elections.

The builders first need 61,113 signatures just to get the Supreme Court to consider their amendment language, and the state elections Web site shows they have not yet reported any signatures.

In case both amendments make it on the ballot and pass, the builders have included a clause in theirs that says theirs would take precedence.

Caputo said Blackner's proposal would be unworkable because it would require hundreds of votes a year for changes to local comp plans now approved by city and county commissions.

But Blackner argued that state lawmakers approved the growth management act in the 1980s anticipating that it would make land-use changes more difficult and result in fewer changes to comp plans.

Over time, so many exemptions have been added to growth management laws that commissioners are "handing (comp plan amendments) out like candy," she said.

She also pointed to Palm Beach County scandals involving former County Commissioners Tony Masilotti and Warren Newell and former West Palm Beach City Commissioners Ray Liberti and Jim Exline.

That they are out of office because of votes tied to development illustrates why the changes are necessary, Blackner said.

"The public interest has been hijacked and redefined in Florida to mean keeping the development industry going," she said. "The whole question is, who does government serve?"

Business Lobby Aims at Amendment

by Tom Palmer for The Ledger |
Jul 24, 2007

Plans to derail the Hometown Democracy Amendment abound.

I know this may come as a shock to some of you, but one of Florida's largest business lobbies has hatched a plan to derail the Florida Hometown Democracy Amendment.

The Florida Chamber of Commerce is openly opposing the amendment and is speaking against it because it thinks it's a bad idea.

But the chamber has taken another step. It has launched a front group called Floridians for Smarter Growth, which has created a competing petition drive.

The petition drives sound deceptively similar.

Here's what Florida Hometown Democracy's proposal says:

"Establishes that before a local government may adopt a new comprehensive land use plan, or amend a comprehensive land use plan, the proposed plan or amendment shall be subject to vote of the electors of the local government by referendum, following preparation by the local planning agency, consideration by the governing body and notice. Provides definitions."

Here's what Floridians for Smarter Growth's proposal says:

"Allows Floridians to call for voter approval of changes to local growth management plans through a citizen petition. Voter approval of growth management plan changes will be required if 10 percent of the voters in the city or county sign a petition calling for such a referendum. Defines terms and establishes petition requirements."

The obvious difference between the two petitions is that while Florida Hometown Democracy's amendment would apply statewide automatically, the Floridians for Smarter Growth amendment would require a second petition drive whose signatures would have to be certified by local election officials before the request could be considered. By the time residents accomplished that, the issue could be moot because the measure may have already been passed.

I'm not surprised that the business interests are nervous about the amendment's prospects.

I base that on the results of the recent Polk County Citizens Opinion Survey.

If there's anything that upsets people more than higher taxes, it's what they perceive as out-of-control growth.

Here are some highlights:

Eighteen percent said growth management has not improved in the past year. Only 8 percent said taxes were worse.

Growth was considered the most important issue facing Polk County, outpacing taxes by at least 2-to-1 and often more over the past four years in the same poll.

I think you could argue that if the Florida Hometown Democracy Amendment passes, it would be somewhat similar to the passage of the tax cuts by the Florida Legislature in one way.

It will be something local government brought upon itself.

For years, in many parts of Florida it appeared as though development interests had an inordinate amount of influence on government decision-making.

That was certainly true here in Polk County.

Developers and their allies delayed adoption of growth planning and then easily persuaded county commissioners to form a committee composed primarily of people from the development community to look for "glitches," which meant in some cases to add provisions they forgot to put in the original document.

The ordinance was filled with provisions that allowed developers to get credits for things people outside the development community thought they should have to do as a matter of course.

Add to that the catastrophic failure of planning in the Four Corners area that created a gigantic gap between supply and demand of public infrastructure.

County officials, after fighting state planners for years to allow dense development along the U.S. 27 corridor at the eastern edge of the Green Swamp, feigned surprise at the sudden development demand. They issued building permits hand over fist, but somehow never got around to making sure there was enough water or parks and recreation.

It's not just us.

Next door in Hillsborough County, the development community has been pressuring the County Commission there to get rid of local wetlands regulations, claiming - well-documented evidence to the contrary - that state and federal regulators will do an adequate job of protecting wetlands.

In Highlands County, planning officials actually solicited landowners to apply for growth plan amendments prematurely to avoid any of the effects of the Hometown Democracy Amendment. Now the county's growth map has too much urban growth planned in rural areas where it has no business occurring.

This is not meant to be an endorsement of the Hometown Democracy Amendment. I leave endorsements to our editorial board.

What I am saying is that it is clear that many people have had enough and it may take more than a sly political gambit by the Florida Chamber of Commerce to divert that rage.

Tom Palmer can be reached at 863-802-7535 or tom.palmer@theledger.com. Read more views on the environment at http://environment.theledger.com and more views on county government at http://county.theledger.com.

Take land use back to voters to decelerate growth machine

Sep 21, 2006

Lesley Blackner explains the importance of the Hometown Democracy amendment through a case study in Edgewater, Florida.

By LESLEY BLACKNER
Originally printed in the Florida Voice June 2006

I was in law school 20 years ago when the Growth Management Act was delivered to the people of Florida as a salvation to the problems of endless growth. I remember well the hype. The new state law would bring "rationality" and "planning" and "expertise" to the business of growth. It would divest ignorant, greedy local politicos of their ability to dump subdivisions onto fragile ecosystems without a second thought. It would ensure that growth didn't destroy Florida.

It's been a bad 20 years. Today there's a consensus that whatever "growth management" may or may not be, it is a failure. The act remains on the books, yet it has not protected Floridians from the constant erosion of our quality of life at the hands of the growth machine.

Why doesn't it work? Well, for starters, the Growth Management Act was never intended to stop growth; its goal is only to manage growth and ensure that the proper infrastructure is in place before the bulldozers scrape the land. The proof: If you add up all the comprehensive plans in our state, you will find that they project housing for more than 100 million people.

Second, what constitutes adequate infrastructure has been a matter of endless debate, and no action. The buzz word is "concurrency." For most developers, getting the road to the land will do the trick. Lack of schools, gridlock, over-stretched police and fire service, the end of open space -- all part and parcel of what most middle class Americans would deem infrastructure deficiencies -- have in no way stymied the growth machine.

Third, Floridians, seduced by the vision of "managed growth," turned their counties and towns over to the "experts": the lawyers, planners, biologists, engineers, bureaucrats and the whole panoply of "consultants." These "experts" are just the growth machine in a fancy suit. They have developed a mind-numbing, pseudoscientific techno-babble that the humble opposition can not hope to understand. Too often, the city and county commissioners don't understand it either. Over and over again, mere mortals are bulldozed by the "experts."

"Are you a traffic expert?" sneered a city attorney at homeowners who dared to oppose a five-fold increase in density for the last remaining bit of green space in their neighborhood on the ground that it would bring a deluge of traffic onto their quiet street. Citizens become demoralized when they speak with common sense and object to the deterioration of their community, yet local government treats them like problem children. It's just too hard to fight city hall under the current rules of the game.

Yes, the rules of the game. That's the key. The growth machine controls the game, it makes up the rules. But there is a different way to make land use decisions, a revolution waiting to happen. It's called voter accountability on land use. That's why I'm supporting the Florida Hometown Democracy Amendment, a statewide petition to amend the Florida Constitution. Under the amendment, comprehensive plan amendments will be submitted to the voter. It's that simple. If you haven't signed the petition, download it at www.floridahometowndemocracy.com

Like the Florida Constitution, county and city charters can be amended to bring a higher level of voter accountability on land use. The charter amendment of choice these days seems to be the height cap. Cities up and down the coast don't want to be Manhattanized. This is so important that citizens enshrine this restriction, to take it away from the easy reach of "experts" and the growth machine.

In response to the approval of twin 16-story condos in Edgewater, a group of fed-up voters formed Edgewater Citizen's Alliance for Responsible Development Inc., (ECARD) and are seeking signatures on a petition to amend the Edgewater Charter to cap new construction at a height of 35 feet. But, bravely, ECARD is going further. ECARD is invoking a forgotten provision in the Edgewater charter to overturn the ordinance approved by the Edgewater City Commission authorizing the 16-story condos. Read the petition at www.floridasos.com. The Edgewater charter allows dissatisfied voters the right to use the referendum process to overturn an ordinance they don't like. This is a powerful tool for accountability.

To take voter accountability a step further, ECARD is circulating a petition to require approval of 4 of 5 commissioners before a land use change is adopted. Why? Right now, only a simple majority is required. Land use changes should not be granted unless there is a strong consensus that the change will benefit the community. This accountability provision raises the threshold for obtaining a land use change. It should be enshrined in charters everywhere.

Going back to our First Amendment right to petition our government for redress of our grievances is the only way to end the tyranny of "government of the developer, by the developer and for the developer." Voter accountability on land use puts the voters back in charge of their communities. It is the future of conservation in Florida.

Blackner, an attorney in Palm Beach, is co-founder of Florida Hometown Democracy Inc. and the attorney for ECARD.

Please download from our website and SIGN THE PETITION !  http://www.FloridaHometownDemocracy.com

FHD, PO Box 636, New Smyrna Beach, FL 32170-0636.  

Posting information that people can access in this blog is an excellent way for them to make choices that will effect our Quality of Life and Save Florida.

Now to address some of the points made by Key2life and Baxley in the blogs:

Key2life makes the point that people are stupid and not able to vote for what they want in their community. With that said, that makes the Commissioners and land developers a bunch of complete idiots. After all we have no one else to blame but them for the mess we find ourself in Florida. Then you make the point they are so stupid they don't even know how to vote on a ballot. Evidently you think only Commissioners and the land developers know what are best for the community. I guess that would go right along with the email where land developers are deciding our future. That should narrow down what is our problem in Clay County.

Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 11:29 AMSubject: Informal Dinner Meeting

Hi Harold and Fritz,

On behalf of the people copied on this e-mail, I would like to invite you to join us for an informal dinner meeting at Winterbourne House, on the grounds of Club Continental, to discuss the County's  future.  Cocktails would be at 6:00 P.M. and dinner at 7:00 P.M. on either April 17 or April 25, 2007, whichever is convenient for you.  Please feel free to bring any other County staff people you feel are appropriate.  If you are available on both the 17th and 25th, we will select the date that the most people can attend.  This e-mail will also serve as an RSVP for those on the copied list to confirm if they are available on April 17, April 25, or on both dates. I will notify you of the final date as soon as I receive everyone’s response.  As everybody's schedule is tight, I would appreciate everyone responding to these two dates as soon as possible. 

Thanks.

Jack

Then you proceed to make the comment it isn't so broken that we can fix it with citizens involvement. Wait a minute, these are the same citizens key2life you just said were stupid. At least that does give us some insight to your way of thinking.

Baxley- then makes the point that if citizens are allowed to determine their quality of life in our community and past the Hometown Democracy amendment. Then we better be glad we are already here because nobody will be allowed to move here. We all agree we have problems that need to be fixed. In other communities they have now determined only 2 ways will fix the poor growth management in Florida is to (1) raise taxes or (2) place road impact fees on the people moving into the area. Since they are doing everything they can to lower taxes because the housing market is putting Florida's economy in serious jeporday. We are left with option 2. Some of the counties after doing impact studies and have now determined a fee that would cover those cost. In Martin County that proposed fee on a 2000 sq ft 3 bedroom home coming up for a vote is (drumroll please) 24,654.00. In Collier County their impact fee is presently 24,388.00. While most counties presently have impact fees of about 8,000.00 to 12,000.00 per county the new fees will double. Talking about being glad we have ours because the average family will not be able to afford to purchase a home in Florida after these new impact fees are imposed because they are directly passed on to the buyers. Recently they had a BCC workshop to discuss impact fees in Clay County. Included is a list of people who showed up and what they said at the meeting.

Discussion on Road Impact Fee

Dr. James C. Nicholas, 126 S.W. 165th Street, Newberry, Florida, made a presentation regarding road impact fees. (See Attached) Lengthy discussion followed.

1. • Diane Hutchings, 1817 Weston Circle, Orange Park, spoke representing the Clay County Chamber of Commerce, Economic Development Division. She asked the Board to proceed slowly with this fee and look at potential results. She asked that the Chamber be given an opportunity for input in the future discussions.
2. • Jack Myers, 1102 River Road, Orange Park, asked that the Board consider transaction fees because they are more equitable than impact fees.
3. • Ted McGowan, 1065 Bulkhead Road, Green Cove Springs, spoke as the Chairman of the Clay County Chamber of Commerce. He said the Chamber has not taken an official position as of yet and they will be studying the issue. He discussed how this would impact existing businesses in Clay County. He asked for clarification on several points.
4. • Kirk Wendland, 10739 Deerwood Park Boulevard, said that he is a board member of the Chamber of Commerce Advisory Board. He asked the Board to call this a tax because that is what it is and he asked to be included in future discussions.
5. • Corey Deal, 103 Century 21 Drive, Jacksonville, spoke for the Clay County Builders Council. He asked several questions about the projected numbers and comparisons to other counties for the proposed fee. Dr. Nicholas provided answers.

1. • Bill Garrison, 5288 C.R. 218, Clay Hill, spoke about the point of view of the builder’s community. He thanked everyone for the information provided.

Interestingly this workshop was held on March 20, 2007. The email posted above is dated March 30, 2007. Even more interesting is Jack Myers statement above. Now will shall see how the County Manager handles this situation which looks just like a Jack Myers special not to raise impact fees to handle this growth but service fees. The County Manager-Proposed Development Services Fee Schedule
Clay County is considering a new fee structure for services performed by the Development Services Department.  This new fee structure will be considered by the BCC at their June 26, 2007 meeting.  This new structure will not affect any Building Permit fees currently being charged.  This new structure, if approved by the BCC, will go into effect on July 1, 2007.I wonder who is running the county. The impact fees that would help fix the problems or the service fees which puts a bandaid on the problems. Looks like things are staying the same unless we the citizens act.Now with all said, we have a growth management plan and the land developers and builders are constantly requesting to change that plan. Of course it is to benefit of them and not the citizens. Signing the petition only requires that to make changes to that growth management plan it has to go to the citizens for a vote. I say let the growth management plan work, stop making changes, and let the impact of what has already taken place in Florida catch up with the poor management we have experienced in recent years due to those changes. The only people who will oppose the amendment will interestingly show up on the campaign contributions of the Commissioners they want in office and those at the informal dinner meeting.Vote Yes on the Hometown Democracy Amendment and protect our State. Go to the website download the petition, pass them out, and most importantly vote.

When you gentlemen disagree with something why can your disagreement not stand on it's own merits?

Why when you disagree with something someone else believes you give all your legitimate reasons and then ice it with something like "blind" "stupid", "incompetent"

Would we all be super smart and have keen sight if we just follow your lead???

The best way to get me to NOT listen to a thing you say is to insult me while you are trying to change my mind.

"The people are not competent" is the oldest trick in the political "how to" book and that is basically your argument against Florida Hometown Democracy. 

I get it, I disagree, and I didn't have to insult anyone to say it.

I am so for this Hometown Democracy Act I can't wait to plunge into the discussion. Baxley is right, of course. People will sign almost anything. However, this Penn and Teller spoof is not what I would like to base an important decision on. Curiously, Ditzy Harry at his Traveling Salvation Road Show last Saturday used the very same You Tube example which in itself makes me suspicious. This dihydrogen monoxide joke is over 20 years old. That's when I first heard it. For a pair of aging comedians to trot it out yet again, is sad. Especially sad is the people paying attention to the joke are not paying attention to the fact that Penn and Teller make a living out of sleight of hand. In other words, they got rich fooling you. Baxley, I certainly hope you are not a shill for Mr. Rutledge. I would be greatly disappointed.

Ditzy Harry also heaped disdain on those who are campaigning for this act by citing only two proponents. 1) supposedly a radical environmental group (unnamed) and 2) a strip club owner on the other side of the state (also unnamed). He made a point to be deliberately vague. This man is unfit for elective office. His main concern is that should the act pass, he can not make back room deals to sell out our environment to developers by changing land use restrictions. If he can't do that, what would be his raison d'etre? This is about greed, pure and simple. When challenged at the meeting in the Fleming Island library, he seemd a bit flummoxed, saying that although there are many who may be better suited for his job, one shouldn't replace him with someone worse. I can not imagine how that could happen unless perhaps Tim Collins were running for the office. God knows he's an embarrassment as a judge.

Finally, as for slowing down and even stopping growth for awhile, how is that a bad thing? This property tax reform bill we are voting on next year (the Superexemption) is a direct result of the completely out of control and mismanaged growth of South Florida. Do we really want to see that happen in our neck of the peninsula? I certainly don't but we are already on the runaway train barreling down that track. We need to stop, take a breath, look around at what a mess we are already in and begin to think about how to repair the damage.

Lily's Lore "I don't ever want to be rescued And I don't ever want to be saved I got a feelin' that I'm gonna be alive forever Dancin' on the edge of a grave..." Jim Steinman

Rutledge's fitness to serve as Chairman of the County Commission, now or for four years in the near-future, aside, Hometown Democracy will (like everything else associated with government) will become politicized to the point where voters won't know which end is up.  So, to keep from getting overwhelmed by the informed opinions of others here at MCS, I suggest people should read the proposed Hometown Democracy amendment and make up their own minds.

Personally, as I read and study, I approach it with this attitude:  If it passes, how will it be used against us regular folks by the growth industry it is intended to control?

Yeah, I know.  A little jaded, but, remember, I'm not a proponent of trusting government's ability to serve its governed.  I figure if government offers you a weapon, there's got to be a plan to take it away and use it against you.

Whatever the broad concept of the Hometown Democracy Amendment dictates, the ideals of Hometown Democracy will be thrashed at the legislative level, sacrificed to the will of lobbyists and their clients.

So, if all the signatures are acquired, and Floridians vote for Hometown Democracy in overwhelming numbers, the battle to acquire the authority to make decisions at the local level won't stop at the ballot box.  It'll just be entering another round of politicalization.

If you believe in Hometown Democracy, fight the fight.  But remember that the battle won't be won with a single trip to the ballot box.

OneMann you are right the builders and the landowners will march straight to Tallahassee demanding they do something just like they did for property tax reform and they listened. The legislators have their ears to the money.

However, if we come out in masses and vote yes on Hometown Democracy we will send a powerful message to Tallahassee. They also listen to the voters.That's how they got there. 

This is why we have a 2-part tax package. The first part give the builders and landowners what they wanted to sell more homes. The second part will be the voice of the people. The Florida Association of Counties inundated the legislators. Now they had builders mad, counties mad, and voters mad. How do they fix it? A 2-part tax package. It was definitely smart from the legislators perspective. Now the counties have to sell the people to not vote for part 2. Rutledge and his town hall meetings and Expo.

Here is an article from Florida Trend a great magazine. He has made clear in the article that counties need to do a better job at managing growth. The Commissioners have no one to blame but themselves.

Hometown 'Is Already Here'
By Mike Vogel - 3/1/2007

Patrick Slevin, a Tallahassee-based public relations consultant who specializes in overcoming neighborhood opposition to new projects, has a message for builders, developers and businesses worried that Lesley Blackner's Florida Hometown Democracy amendment will come to be: "Hometown Democracy is already here."

Death by a thousand cuts is in the offing for developers, Slevin says, citing eight Florida cities that held referendums last year over building heights, densities or other development issues; 10 of the 13 anti-development initiatives passed.

Hometown Democracy has "kind of metastasized," says Wayne Bertsch, political affairs director for the Florida Home Builders Association. "We have a huge concern the way it's spreading around the state."

Slevin says Blackner's effort is inspiring local growth opponents statewide. To combat the trend, Slevin counsels early intervention -- well before initiatives secure enough signatures to qualify for the ballot. He also encourages elected leaders, land-use professionals and businesses to conduct grass-roots outreach and communicate better with the public.

Hometown Democracy and the local referendums indicate a "growing dissatisfaction with the way we're dealing with growth," says Tom Pelham, Florida's new Department of Community Affairs secretary and a lawyer who represented St. Pete Beach, one of the referendum cities, in its losing fight against anti-development referendums. "It behooves everyone around the state in a decision-making role to be sure they do a better job with dealing with growth ... and improve how we deal with public participation."

Vote Yes on Hometown Democracy.

Marsha,  It has never been my intention, nor was it in my recent posts, to insult anyone.  Especially not you.  I have always respected your demeanor on this site, and hopefully I can emulate your moderate presentation in stating my own opinion.  I'll be the first to admit that I have an opinion about a lot of things, and thanks to MCS, have a forum to express it.  I think I stated how I feel fairly succintly, and in an effort to keep it short, presented what I think are the some of the bigger issues.

I started my first post with, "And they're off," because I knew this would turn into one of those long and winding roads with lots of passionate posts.  If I offended you, or anyone, I apologize - it was not my intent.

Disagreement is what drives this site.  If we all said - "yes, I agree" over and over it would be pretty boring.  I participate to learn, to share my opinion with anyone who cares to read it, to read other opinions, and to practice a little writing.  I may disagree with your opinion on this issue, but find that I agree with you on others.  Again, sorry if I came across a little too rough.  After re-reading my posts, I never said anyone was stupid.

OneMann - I'm as independent a person as you will ever meet.  I'm not a shill for anyone (great word though).  I did attend one of the town hall meetings, and heard Mr. Rutledge's reference to the bit.  I have seen the video, and passed it along because it is appropriate as to how easy it is to get people to sign a petition.  I suppose everyone knows that the people who are gathering these signatures, and others for the infinite number of petitions floating around, are very often paid per signature, further motivating them to collect the signatures, and in my mind, further compromising the validity of the process. (As far as I know, the CTLAC does not use paid signature collectors.)  Just because I agree with Rutledge, does not make me a shill.  Heck, I even agree with Comm. George Bush once in a while.

I've followed planning and zoning issues in Clay County for over 20 years.  I was involved in the drafting of the original Comprehensive Plan for Clay County.  To be redundant, I think there is an adequate aystem in place that needs stronger oversight by the people who ultimately say yes or no - the BCC.  To go to a system where every single land use change is voted on by what could be called an apathetic electorate on a good turnout, seems like a bad idea - to me.

I hope I didn't offend anyone.

Marsha

I did not set out to offend anyone and I did not call anyone "stupid." That word is not allowed in my house much less my writing repetoire. There are no "stupid" people in the world. I preach that to my children often. There are people who are less informed about what's going on around them. You called those folks stupid and incompetent, Marsha, not me.

I call it apathy, lack of interest or any other of a number of things. I don't call anyone stupid. I cited history. I cited recent history and many bloggers here cite the $9m garbage fiasco when talking about a recent example of a lack of oversight. Those weren't "stupid" people who were involved. They didn't have all the information they needed to make better choices. Many may have made better choices...

I used the same type of analogy.

There were uninformed voters who went to the polls in 2004, especially in South Florida. That is a fact. That doesn't make them stupid.

Respectfully, I disagree with your assessment of getting people to the polls every election cycle and them knowing what's going on. I can't decipher the "Judge" candidates on the ballot and I've met several on the campaign trail. Does that make me stupid? Incompetent? It means, I don't know who to vote for. And I pay attention.

I don't think we want a lot of people running around the State of Florida Christmas-treeing every ballot they come out for because an amendment has driven the choice to the masses. I imagine Christmas-treeing a ballot turns out about as well as Christmas-treeing a multiple-choice test...statistically, not so good and there's no grading on a curve on a ballot.

Bax, you made reference to me in your last post and I believe you must have me confused with someone else.  I've certainly never accused you, or anyone else, of being a shill for Harold Rutledge, nor to the Chairman referring to how easy it is to get signatures on a petition.

No harm done.  On the long blogs, it's easy to mix up exactly who wrote exactly what.

Let me make one statement which is a little off topic but that I see a little different than you about a statement you made.

" I cited recent history and many bloggers here cite the $9m garbage fiasco when talking about a recent example of a lack of oversight. Those weren't "stupid" people who were involved. They didn't have all the information they needed to make better choices. Many may have made better choices..."

The Commissioners voted on the board floor to permit the dumping. How do you get lack of oversight out of that vote? How much have the citizens paid Edmund Jones and where was Mr. Altman? All of them including Ivey were doing what the Commissioners told them to do. Then they sat up there and let Ivey take the heat for what they decided to do. Why paid all that taxpayers money to experts if you are going to violate the law? If you then decide to violate the law then call it what it was but it wasn't lack of oversight.